Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Sebastian Stone
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Sebastian Stone » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:12 pm

Lee Bullock wrote: Oh come on, no player below 140
is ever gonna qualify ;) surely someone agrees with me that to give hope to every level of player is good for chess. Even if not the grand prix idea then a tournament contaning 200 odd u120 players play 11 rounds to decide 2 or 3 places at the British. Such a great story.
There is hope, you can get good enough that you can earn the right to play in the championship.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:I like watching golf.
So is the ECF about watching chess or playing chess. What might be interesting to spectators could be of no interest whatsoever to players? Who are more important?

Why even insult the top GMs by insisting that they spend the first week qualifying, particularly in a Swiss without acceleration? Why not just invite them to turn up for the second week? That way you save hotel bills.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Lee Bullock wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:Lee - there already is an opportunity for any player to qualify for the British. Literally.
Oh come on, no player below 140
is ever gonna qualify ;) surely someone agrees with me that to give hope to every level of player is good for chess. Even if not the grand prix idea then a tournament contaning 200 odd u120 players play 11 rounds to decide 2 or 3 places at the British. Such a great story.
"it would give every player in the whole country that hope of pairing an IM or GM in a real game."

You can do this already in any Open tournament in the UK. The reason those players do not take part in Open events is that they don't want to play much stronger players! In my suggested format those players can still qulify for the British, or enter directly if they want to.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Why even insult the top GMs by insisting that they spend the first week qualifying, particularly in a Swiss without acceleration? Why not just invite them to turn up for the second week? That way you save hotel bills.
That is a very good idea - I will think about it.
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Ian Kingston
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Ian Kingston » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:21 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:Why even insult the top GMs by insisting that they spend the first week qualifying, particularly in a Swiss without acceleration? Why not just invite them to turn up for the second week? That way you save hotel bills.
That is a very good idea - I will think about it.
Some people play at the British because they can watch the top players play live. They might not fancy turning up during the first week if the big guns are missing.

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Lee Bullock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Lee Bullock wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:Lee - there already is an opportunity for any player to qualify for the British. Literally.
Oh come on, no player below 140
is ever gonna qualify ;) surely someone agrees with me that to give hope to every level of player is good for chess. Even if not the grand prix idea then a tournament contaning 200 odd u120 players play 11 rounds to decide 2 or 3 places at the British. Such a great story.
"it would give every player in the whole country that hope of pairing an IM or GM in a real game."

You can do this already in any Open tournament in the UK. The reason those players do not take part in Open events is that they don't want to play much stronger players! In my suggested format those players can still qulify for the British, or enter directly if they want to.
But my point adam is to earn that right feels totally different.

If you pair an IM/GM in an open tournament its either luck due to amount entered or chance by just winning 1 game maybe. To play at the british is every players dream, just to be in the same draw as IMs/GMs knowing its qualification based is a great feeling and totally differnt from just entering an open.
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:48 pm

Lee Bullock wrote:But my point adam is to earn that right feels totally different.

I'm not sure that winning a tournament by excluding all the players that would beat you counts as "earning".


Also, there are currently about 10-12 places awarded by nomination. Not that I agree that nominations have any place in a tournament that one is supposed to be "qualification" based, but you could always persuade somebody to nominate you. That would be no less meaningful a way in than saying you won a tournament when people who would finish above you on merit aren't allowed to play in the first place.

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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:00 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Also, there are currently about 10-12 places awarded by nomination. Not that I agree that nominations have any place in a tournament that one is supposed to be "qualification" based, but you could always persuade somebody to nominate you. That would be no less meaningful a way in than saying you won a tournament when people who would finish above you on merit aren't allowed to play in the first place.
If one stood and became elected as Director of Junior Chess & Education, one could even nominate oneself. :wink:

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Lee Bullock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:11 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Lee Bullock wrote:But my point adam is to earn that right feels totally different.

I'm not sure that winning a tournament by excluding all the players that would beat you counts as "earning".


Also, there are currently about 10-12 places awarded by nomination. Not that I agree that nominations have any place in a tournament that one is supposed to be "qualification" based, but you could always persuade somebody to nominate you. That would be no less meaningful a way in than saying you won a tournament when people who would finish above you on merit aren't allowed to play in the first place.
See your also missing my point. If you earn a place through a qualifying event then I think you deserve that place. My main point was people who finish in the top 12 of their grand prix section have that chance to qualify for the main british championship. This would give every player at every level a hope and a chance to earn it fully. I would even say the winner of the grand prix automatcally qualifies and the next 12 who want to qualify to have that chance play off for 2 more places.

Im only talking for me and a few people that I have poken to and they all said they would make an efort to be in those top 12 places. The amount of extra money and interest this would bring into the game would be immense. As their are tens of thousands of low rated players and only a few top GM/IMs/FM's. And im sure the top players would encourage any idea that gives hope to all and anything that brings money into the game.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:16 pm

Lee Bullock wrote:Im only talking for me and a few people that I have poken to and they all said they would make an efort to be in those top 12 places. The amount of extra money and interest this would bring into the game would be immense. As their are tens of thousands of low rated players and only a few top GM/IMs/FM's. And im sure the top players would encourage any idea that gives hope to all and anything that brings money into the game.
Your admirable theory may be based on a false premise. My experience tell me that in general, players want to play in a section where they compete against roughly the same level of opposition - at least in the UK.
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:18 pm

Lee Bullock wrote: See your also missing my point.
No, I see your point. I just don't agree with it. You say winning a tournament where the people who would beat you can't play somehow qualifies you to play for the title British Chess Champion. I say it doesn't.

I can see why you would want a chance to play in a championship when you wouldn't qualify on merit. I just don't think it is a good idea.

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Lee Bullock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:00 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Lee Bullock wrote:Im only talking for me and a few people that I have poken to and they all said they would make an efort to be in those top 12 places. The amount of extra money and interest this would bring into the game would be immense. As their are tens of thousands of low rated players and only a few top GM/IMs/FM's. And im sure the top players would encourage any idea that gives hope to all and anything that brings money into the game.
Your admirable theory may be based on a false premise. My experience tell me that in general, players want to play in a section where they compete against roughly the same level of opposition - at least in the UK.
Well that may be true, for some, for others the chance to get beat up by some IMs/GMs would be a thrill, to just have that chance of an upset. As I say it would only be for 1 round, then there games would be lower rated as the rounds went on. Also players dont have to enter the pre tournament. Only those who were interested in playing in the british would enter this pre tournament. eg you just pick the top 12 from the grand prix who want to.
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Lee Bullock
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Lee Bullock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:07 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Lee Bullock wrote: See your also missing my point.
No, I see your point. I just don't agree with it. You say winning a tournament where the people who would beat you can't play somehow qualifies you to play for the title British Chess Champion. I say it doesn't.

I can see why you would want a chance to play in a championship when you wouldn't qualify on merit. I just don't think it is a good idea.
No your not seeing my point as your point is about just a tournament for lower rated to qualify. My point is about all the thousands who travel all over the country to build up grand prix points and get nothing for coming second out of thousands of people. I find that terrible. My point is about giving everyone in the country a chance, an oportunity. If you are i the top 12 out of thousands of players then you are very serious about chess. All im saying is surely these people can be rewarded which would improve chess on the whole finacially and interest wise.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:23 pm

Lee Bullock wrote:Well that may be true, for some, for others the chance to get beat up by some IMs/GMs would be a thrill, to just have that chance of an upset.
It would be cheaper, if not quite the same thrill, to enter a simultaneous display. Or enter an Open tournament, as you say. And there are some people who blunder horribly and embarrass themselves when playing players much stronger than they are. It's not actually much fun watching that, let alone being the player who loses such a game.

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Re: Changes to the format of the British Championship?

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:28 pm

Hi Adam,

I am not sure if this is the right place to post, hopefully it is. With regards to the junior events, you could improve participation by several hundred by making it a qualification event like the London Juniors and running competitions all over the country hand in hand with the junior county organisers. The London Juniors do allow qualification by grade also so that the top juniors would not need to go through this process.

In order to maximise numbers, you could set the qualification bar at a reasonable level (ie 3/6) so it is something to aim at and not too hard to achieve. If somebody does not qualify in one tournament, there can be a list of alternative qualification tournaments they can attend. Also, you could list all children who have qualified on the ECf website - again it would make them feel happy about coming. If children quailfy through their county organisations then it would make it a true British Championship.

It was how we began travelling around because our children won/did well in competitions and then qualified for the next 'leg' and became excited about going onwards and upwards. I have seen myself how excited the children become at county competitions when they realise that they have 'qualified' for something else.

This whole process would raise funds for the ECF and this could be used directly for coaching and training.

It might require some organisation and some level of co-ordination with a pro-active Junior Director and Coaching manager.

In addition, it could be the jewel in the crown of the main Grand Prix event and therefore the final event rather than the first.

Just a suggestion.....

Kind regards,

Krishna
Last edited by Krishna Shiatis on Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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