Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:33 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:Opps i forgot ECF direct members dont pay the £13 they only pay £7 or £13 club subs.
Roger you have blinkers on you only see what you want to see you have never been part of a membership scheme so you can not say how hard or easy things are.
If game fee was so great why did Cleveland give it up after 1 season.Why have none of the MOs gone back to game fee and given up on membership.
I will be really intrested in how you sidestep or ignore those questions.
The Cleveland,Durham,And Northumberland leagues are all compulsary membership without any problems.
Points

(1) I have been part of a membership scheme, it was called levy and registration. As Club Treasurer, the job became simpler when Game Fee came in.
(2) Cleveland gave up Game Fee, by my analysis anyway, because you made it far too complex. Set an entry fee for each club at the start of the season and keep any profit or loss for the county. Your additional complication, as Manchester note, is that it's complex to be on the edge of an MO areas.
(3) I'm puzzled why MOs or clubs therein never carry out the test - Headcount*£13 v Gamecount*58p. I cannot believe in every single club that you play on average over 20 games a season. I'm using the evidence of the dame count column in the grading download. Rather I suspect you are paying more than you need. The other point is that by comparison to Direct Members at £ 27 a head, MOs are getting much the same benefits at £ 13 a head. Perhaps this outweighs the extra cost to those who don't participate nationally. I remember the first year of MOs. It was boasted that it brought more money in than the previous Game Fee approach. There may have been more games played, but if it was the same number of players, it could only have brought in more by increasing the average cost per player.
(4) Could I clarify something about membership? Is it the case that even if a player plays a single league game, you expect him, or his club, to pay a £ 13 membership fee to the MO?

Steve Henderson
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Steve Henderson » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:28 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Points

(1) I have been part of a membership scheme, it was called levy and registration. As Club Treasurer, the job became simpler when Game Fee came in.
(2) Cleveland gave up Game Fee, by my analysis anyway, because you made it far too complex. Set an entry fee for each club at the start of the season and keep any profit or loss for the county. Your additional complication, as Manchester note, is that it's complex to be on the edge of an MO areas.
(3) I'm puzzled why MOs or clubs therein never carry out the test - Headcount*£13 v Gamecount*58p. I cannot believe in every single club that you play on average over 20 games a season. I'm using the evidence of the dame count column in the grading download. Rather I suspect you are paying more than you need. The other point is that by comparison to Direct Members at £ 27 a head, MOs are getting much the same benefits at £ 13 a head. Perhaps this outweighs the extra cost to those who don't participate nationally. I remember the first year of MOs. It was boasted that it brought more money in than the previous Game Fee approach. There may have been more games played, but if it was the same number of players, it could only have brought in more by increasing the average cost per player.
(4) Could I clarify something about membership? Is it the case that even if a player plays a single league game, you expect him, or his club, to pay a £ 13 membership fee to the MO?
Hi Roger

Ponit (1) I remember that !

Point (2) IMO your analysis is incorrect

Point (3) Clubs simply want to know how much per player it is to play in the Associations Events, once they know they set their club subs. In the club subs for each player will be, CCA Registration Fee, MO Fee, Club Membership Fee.

In Cleveland we went back to Game Fee (for 1 year) because we thought that the player who plays less than 4 games per season would get a better deal ie: cheaper club membership. However, what we found is that most clubs would simply divide the total cost of running its chess club by the number of players it had, this mean't that the players playing 4 games or less per season were paying the same club fees as those playing 14 to 20 games per season!

After running both Game Fee and MO's and a mixture of both, Cleveland voted to go with the MO, and everyone is happy, otherwise they would be at the AGM with proposal's to change it back.

Point (4) Two things here, for a player to play in CCA Events he/she must be a CCA Registered Member and either a MO Member or a Direct ECF member. All Clubs are aware they must registered and pay before they field a player.

Roger - how does it work at your chess club?
1. Do players have to be a member of your chess club to play league chess?
2. Do you charge a club membership fee ie: to cover venue cost per year, how do you split the cost of this between the players, for instance, the chap that plays 1 game for you, does he pay anything towards the cost of the venue?

If you could give us an outline of how your club is set up and how players are charged that would help.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:09 pm

The crux of the matter seems to be: "most clubs would simply divide the total cost of running its chess club by the number of players it had". That is how all the chess clubs I've ever been a member of have operated, with the proviso that some clubs do try and maximise the number of games played per player (i.e. reduce any imbalance) if they have enough teams available to do this with. But maybe other clubs do vary the amount a player is charged depending on the number of games they play? Part of the problem may also be variance in costs of venues. If Club A plays at an expensive venue, most of the subscription will be paying for the venue, not the game fee/MO fee. If a club plays at a cheap or free venue, the subscription will be mostly paying for the game fee/MO fee. Leagues that have a central communal venue (like the London League) can bundle the cost of that venue in their league entry fees.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:13 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The crux of the matter seems to be: "most clubs would simply divide the total cost of running its chess club by the number of players it had". That is how all the chess clubs I've ever been a member of have operated, with the proviso that some clubs do try and maximise the number of games played per player (i.e. reduce any imbalance) if they have enough teams available to do this with. But maybe other clubs do vary the amount a player is charged depending on the number of games they play?
Every club I'm a member of has a membership rate and a concessionary rate. This is a fixed charge, usually paid at the start of the season. That model is the norm around here.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:18 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The crux of the matter seems to be: "most clubs would simply divide the total cost of running its chess club by the number of players it had". That is how all the chess clubs I've ever been a member of have operated, with the proviso that some clubs do try and maximise the number of games played per player (i.e. reduce any imbalance) if they have enough teams available to do this with. But maybe other clubs do vary the amount a player is charged depending on the number of games they play?
Every club I'm a member of has a membership rate and a concessionary rate. This is a fixed charge, usually paid at the start of the season. That model is the norm around here.
It's the model in force at Barnstaple as well (although we have two differenc concessionary rates, one of which is zero).

William Metcalfe
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by William Metcalfe » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:46 pm

At our club juniors are free pensioners, students, and the unemployed pay 20 pounds that includes the ECF MO fee of 13 pound.Employed people pay 25 pounds that includes the ECF MO fee.
For that our players get to play in 2 leagues where we run 5 teams they also get there club championship games graded and this season we are going to sent our quickplay championship games for grading.
I honestly think our players get one of the best deals in the whole of England.
By the end of this upcomming season every adult player in our club should have a long and quickplay grade something that never happened under game fee.
I thaught the ECF,and chess clubs were supposed to promote the playing of chess i want somebody to explain to me how game fee promotes chess.
The experiance at our club shows players play more chess and become ECF members under membership.
Also players that have never had a grade are now getting a grade.Getting a grade makes people feel like they are acually a small part of English chess
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:01 pm

Steve Henderson wrote: Roger - how does it work at your chess club?
1. Do players have to be a member of your chess club to play league chess?
2. Do you charge a club membership fee ie: to cover venue cost per year, how do you split the cost of this between the players, for instance, the chap that plays 1 game for you, does he pay anything towards the cost of the venue?

If you could give us an outline of how your club is set up and how players are charged that would help.
If the alternative is a default, we would allow guest players. In my view it's part of league chess that the treasurer has to be prepared to allow the odd player who isn't a paying member, particularly in an away match. It's also a way of giving players an initial trial appearance in a graded game.

Part of the changes that membership will introduce, is that it will cause clubs to curtail this practice.
Steve Henderson wrote:Point (2) IMO your analysis is incorrect
In what way exactly? Our leagues work on the basis that the league charges an entry fee usually £x per club plus £y per team. The league or county treasurer estimates Game Fee based on the size of the league and pays the ECF. At the season's end, the exact amount of Game Fee owing is calculated and carried forward to next year. At league level, you make no attempt to apportion Game Fee by club or individual. It's up to clubs to decide whether to recoup league fees from members, either at all (if the club has other funding), per head, or per game. For what it's worth, the norm is the charge per head for the league players, but per match for Saturday afternoon county matches.

Steve Henderson wrote:Point (3) Clubs simply want to know how much per player it is to play in the Associations Events
Why per player, why not per team? That's how we do it in the South, it doesn't matter to the League whether a club uses 6 players or 16, the cost is the same. Even the 4NCL do it this way, where your entry fee covers you for a squad twice the size as the nominal number of boards.
Steve Henderson wrote:Point (4) Two things here, for a player to play in CCA Events he/she must be a CCA Registered Member and either a MO Member or a Direct ECF member. All Clubs are aware they must registered and pay before they field a player.
Do I have this correct? It's a closed shop and non-members are banned from playing, or have to incur the full Cleveland and ECF membership fee just to play one game.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:12 pm

William Metcalfe wrote: The experiance at our club shows players play more chess and become ECF members under membership.
Also players that have never had a grade are now getting a grade.Getting a grade makes people feel like they are acually a small part of English chess
It seems to me that if a league charges an entry fee of say £ 40 for a 6 board team over ten matches, then if you have potentially twelve players who could play, then you treat them as a squad and play all twelve in the league. Under membership, you would have to pay for external membership for all twelve. We've run that way under Game Fee for years and we try to make sure new players get 9 games in the season. It would be a luxury to have 6 spare players of course, but putting everyone in a team helps raise standards.

Once we had Game Fee, there was no longer any point in having a concept of paid for County membership. So it was abolished.

Michele Clack
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Michele Clack » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:43 pm

How long ago did all this happen Roger? What did you find particularly upsetting about the levy?

David Robertson

Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by David Robertson » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:52 pm

michele clack wrote:How long ago did all this happen Roger? What did you find particularly upsetting about the levy?
Good p%ss-take, Michele? I'm dying to read page 90

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:07 pm

michele clack wrote:How long ago did all this happen Roger? What did you find particularly upsetting about the levy?
1993-1995 was the era during which Game Fee was introduced. Levy was a system whereby counties, just counties, not leagues, paid the BCF a membership cost based on how large the BCF thought they were. In practice there was a certain amount of economy with the truth, where not all clubs were declared and not all league divisions were rated. Thus Levy was regarded as arbitrary and unfair. Alongside Levy, you had a sort of membership scheme for individuals. It was called registration and you were supposed to be registered to play in some county leagues, some Congresses and BCF events like county matches. Individual counties got a number of registrations and clubs were expected to supply a list of players to the county to pick up the "free" registrations and pay for any extra ones. The only benefit to players was a registration slip of paper, which had value if anyone challenged your right to play in an event. Counties had to have a officer called registrations secretary. Clubs were billed ( other counties may have been different) on the basis of 8 registrations per 6 board team. Grading was done at no direct cost to clubs or counties.

So if you got a new player at the end of the season and you followed the rules, you had to register them and pay the registration cost (which might sometimes have been nil). In all events it was more work for a new player than Game Fee, which was totally open (as far as the ECF were concerned) as to who could play in a club match.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:09 pm

David Robertson wrote: Good p%ss-take, Michele? I'm dying to read page 90
What do you find particularly upsetting about a Council structure? It long pre-dates Game Fee.

David Robertson

Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by David Robertson » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:19 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Robertson wrote: Good p%ss-take, Michele? I'm dying to read page 90
What do you find particularly upsetting about a Council structure? It long pre-dates Game Fee.
Oh, you want me to reach page 90 on my own?

Simon Spivack
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Simon Spivack » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:35 pm

David Robertson wrote:Good p%ss-take, Michele? I'm dying to read page 90
I make it 45 not out at the moment. I'll bowl just the one ball today. Some people have no stamina.
Roger de Coverly wrote:1993-1995 was the era during which Game Fee was introduced. Levy was a system whereby counties, just counties, not leagues, paid the BCF a membership cost based on how large the BCF thought they were. In practice there was a certain amount of economy with the truth, where not all clubs were declared and not all league divisions were rated. Thus Levy was regarded as arbitrary and unfair. Alongside Levy, you had a sort of membership scheme for individuals. It was called registration and you were supposed to be registered to play in some county leagues, some Congresses and BCF events like county matches. Individual counties got a number of registrations and clubs were expected to supply a list of players to the county to pick up the "free" registrations and pay for any extra ones. The only benefit to players was a registration slip of paper, which had value if anyone challenged your right to play in an event. Counties had to have a officer called registrations secretary. Clubs were billed ( other counties may have been different) on the basis of 8 registrations per 6 board team. Grading was done at no direct cost to clubs or counties.
The eight registrations per six boards nuance was probably peculiar to Buckinghamshire.

A member club of Middlesex CCA would supply a list of members to the county at the beginning of the season that the club thought should be registered, i.e. everyone who played chess in the leagues that supported the BCF. The checks for duplication were haphazard. Indeed, it wasn't fun writing out names etc. on the membership cards (not paper, but cardboard) and checking for that number of people.

The BCF would assign a point for every fifty registered members. Thus at Middlesex CCA we were assigned twenty points, as we supposedly had a thousand members. After a lengthy appeal we got that reduced to seventeen. In my time as treasurer (I was the one who did the chasing and checking), we actually had between seven hundred and seven hundred and fifty members. Thus there wasn't a cat in hell's chance of us getting close to exhausting our free (sic) registrations. The MCCA raised its own money by adding a supplement to the levy, there was also a small sum due to the SCCU. A consequence of the MCCA having nowhere near as many members as the BCF allocated was that a significant part of the money ostensibly going to the county association actually went to the Federation.

Andrew's proposals allow for considerable scope in the local implementation. I do not expect the old levy system to apply to the MCCA.

Many forumites are aware that Adam is the President of the MCCA (he may be the Deputy {or is it Vice? I can never remember} President when the vote is taken). It is likely that his suggestions will carry weight at any MCCA meeting in which implementation is agreed. From what I can determine, Adam is pressing for the county to be excluded from the membership application process. Thus a member club will either apply on behalf of its members, or advise them to go directly to the Federation.

As regards the Middlesex League, will there be a rule requiring mandatory membership of the Federation? My own view is that that would be a mistake. A better solution would be to insist that only those who play more than four games in a season must join the ECF. This would solve the problem of cajoling the odd game or two from a reluctant player to avoid a default. The only magic about the number four is that it is mentioned in other rules applicable to league chess in the London area (e.g. one can play four times for higher teams before becoming ineligible to play in the lower. Why remember more numbers that necessary?). As for the game fee that would supposedly be liable, I'd just ignore it as a needless complication. I'd like to see what the ECF could do to enforce collection of this game fee (grading or not grading at most four games is not something of much value. Does the Federation go after the club, league or player?). Such a county rule would be largely self-enforcing as the more competitive captains would check for violations. Should someone not be a member and play too often, all games should be scored as losses for him and wins for the opponent. Note, too, that this will reduce the need for everyone to join at the same time. If an ECF membership lapses mid-season, the player will have to rejoin if he wants to score more than zero. He'd be very unpopular with his captain and teammates should he be remiss.

It is perfectly possible that other leagues in the London area will not have a rule requiring some form of ECF membership. However, if their players are not members, they won't have an ECF grade.

I am deliberately not examining in any detail how clubs will enforce any ECF system. It will vary from circle to circle. To judge from what Adam has written, his club has to raise more money to finance a rent increase and therefore will simply pocket any game fee currently going to the Federation, the ECF membership fee being on top of the club subscription. My own club has not made any decisions, as far as I am aware.

The club of which I was secretary in the early nineties provides an example of how the transition from the registrations system to game fee operated in practice. Our reserves had been deliberately run down in previous years on the basis that if there was no money, it wouldn't grow legs and walk. We used the savings from the change in system to boost our deposits.

If the MCCA goes down the route suggested above, we will have the absurd situation that it will have votes without direct fund raising responsibilities for the Federation. This bathetic outcome would be a just reward for a scheme that doesn't recognise that the problem is constitutional.

A major concern is that no comfort appears to have been given as to whether the ECF is capable of implementing centralised collection. Its record on IT is not one of the finest. From what I can see, no contracts have been exchanged, how could they be? But even a hint that something has been discussed would be useful. How do we know that the software will not be written by Milo Minderbinder Enterprises? It could be that I've missed it, but has any budgeting been done of the likely costs? This would all be more sensibly done if the practicalities of OMOV were part of the software design.

Steve Henderson
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Re: Summary of Funding Proposals for AGM

Post by Steve Henderson » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:54 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Steve Henderson wrote: Roger - how does it work at your chess club?
1. Do players have to be a member of your chess club to play league chess?
2. Do you charge a club membership fee ie: to cover venue cost per year, how do you split the cost of this between the players, for instance, the chap that plays 1 game for you, does he pay anything towards the cost of the venue?

If you could give us an outline of how your club is set up and how players are charged that would help.
If the alternative is a default, we would allow guest players. In my view it's part of league chess that the treasurer has to be prepared to allow the odd player who isn't a paying member, particularly in an away match. It's also a way of giving players an initial trial appearance in a graded game.

Part of the changes that membership will introduce, is that it will cause clubs to curtail this practice.
If I understand this correctly, you are saying yes, players do have to be members of your chess club to play league chess and that you have players you can contact that will play only when needed to stop a default (guest player). Yes/No ?
Does the guest player have to be a member of your chess club to play for your team?
Does the guest player pay any club fees?
How many times can you field a guest player per season?

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Steve Henderson wrote:Point (2) IMO your analysis is incorrect
In what way exactly? Our leagues work on the basis that the league charges an entry fee usually £x per club plus £y per team. The league or county treasurer estimates Game Fee based on the size of the league and pays the ECF. At the season's end, the exact amount of Game Fee owing is calculated and carried forward to next year. At league level, you make no attempt to apportion Game Fee by club or individual. It's up to clubs to decide whether to recoup league fees from members, either at all (if the club has other funding), per head, or per game. For what it's worth, the norm is the charge per head for the league players, but per match for Saturday afternoon county matches.
I understood most of this.
The league says to the club, to enter a team in the league it cost £x (entry fee + Team)
The Club pays £x to the league, which covers 6 boards over 10 rds
The club can then field any player it likes on these 6 boards?


Then you say, "It's up to clubs to decide whether to recoup league fees from members, either at all (if the club has other funding), per head, or per game. For what it's worth, the norm is the charge per head for the league players, but per match for Saturday afternoon county matches."

How much per head does your club charge?
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Steve Henderson wrote:Point (3) Clubs simply want to know how much per player it is to play in the Associations Events
Why per player, why not per team? That's how we do it in the South, it doesn't matter to the League whether a club uses 6 players or 16, the cost is the same. Even the 4NCL do it this way, where your entry fee covers you for a squad twice the size as the nominal number of boards.
This is because we do not have any league fees, KO Cup Fees, Individual Championship Fees, Club Championships Fees, we are a Members Organisation and to play in the Associations Events, the player must become a member by registering with Cleveland and the ECF, all games played are graded.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Steve Henderson wrote:Point (4) Two things here, for a player to play in CCA Events he/she must be a CCA Registered Member and either a MO Member or a Direct ECF member. All Clubs are aware they must registered and pay before they field a player.
Do I have this correct? It's a closed shop and non-members are banned from playing, or have to incur the full Cleveland and ECF membership fee just to play one game.
You have that correct; non-members cannot play in the Associations Events.