My Resignation

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Paul Cooksey

Re: My Resignation

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:43 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:My main worry now is that Keene, de Mooi and their sycophants are going to hound Lara all the way to North Shields.
It is difficult to comment on this, since as I said above I know I am not in full possession of the facts. I am not aware that anyone is hounding Lara, I hope this is not the case. Indeed, I though the substance of Alex's complaint was that CJ remains silent. I have to admit, that I felt that it was Alex who was keeping this going.

I did not welcome Mr Keene's tweet supporting my comments. I imagine he had not seen my earlier criticism of him. I am old enough to remember the scandals of the late 80s, so do not welcome Mr Keene's involvement in anything. Even if he felt his comments were justified at the time, which I find hard to believe, I cannot understand why he has not publicly regretted making them. I can only assume he believes in never apologising, which I consider a selfish philosophy, albeit not unique to him*

However Mr Keene has no role at the ECF. CJ has apologised for overreacting, and for the reasons I have given before I think that is the only thing for which he needed to apologise. I think it is damaging to the ECF for this dispute to go on. Given Lara's comments it seems unlikely that Alex's resignation is an end to the matter. So again, if they cannot accept the harm Lara has suffered was accidental rather than malicious, I think it is appropriate they present their case to either the board or an EGM.




* Incidentally I believe "Never explain, never apologise, it makes you look weak" was actually spoken by John Wayne, not Benjamin Disraeli, as attributed by the Giddins' Blog. Disraeli said "Never complain, never explain". Since never complaining would be anathema to Mr Giddins, he can continue in his dislike of Disraeli with a clear conscience.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:19 pm

Paul, you see everything as boiling down to the fact that CJ may have thought he was in the right at Sheffield. But there is good reason to suppose that it was he who (much later) told the Times that he suspected homophobia* at Sheffield, something which the Times think to be potentially defamatory of Alex. That doesn't justify a denial, apology or explanation? And since CJ is about the one person Keene corresponds with, do you really see no possible link between their relationship and the recent tweets by Keene misrepresenting Lara's communications to the Board, calling her to stand down? (And where do you suppose he learnt about these presumably confidential communications?)


* all we do know is that he has never used this exact word

Geoff Chandler
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Alex Mac posted:

"At the beginning of this saga I was approached and asked if Private Eye could cover this matter."

Image

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:33 pm

Very funny Geoff :-)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:42 pm

Does the £589 cover price signify something? Surely a missed opportunity for a joke there.

John Constable
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Re: My Resignation

Post by John Constable » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:10 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote:Question.

How much longer is this insane farce going to continue?

Well the Keene-Miles affair is well over 21 years old and counting so this youngster has some way to run yet. Of course, the K-M thing not being satisfactorily resolved at the time is partly why we're he now with the CJ stuff.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Does the £589 cover price signify something? Surely a missed opportunity for a joke there.
Christopher, click on the 21 years old and counting link for its significance.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:27 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:My main worry now is that Keene, de Mooi and their sycophants are going to hound Lara all the way to North Shields.
It is difficult to comment on this, since as I said above I know I am not in full possession of the facts. I am not aware that anyone is hounding Lara, I hope this is not the case. Indeed, I though the substance of Alex's complaint was that CJ remains silent. I have to admit, that I felt that it was Alex who was keeping this going.

I did not welcome Mr Keene's tweet supporting my comments. I imagine he had not seen my earlier criticism of him. I am old enough to remember the scandals of the late 80s, so do not welcome Mr Keene's involvement in anything. Even if he felt his comments were justified at the time, which I find hard to believe, I cannot understand why he has not publicly regretted making them. I can only assume he believes in never apologising, which I consider a selfish philosophy, albeit not unique to him*

However Mr Keene has no role at the ECF. CJ has apologised for overreacting, and for the reasons I have given before I think that is the only thing for which he needed to apologise. I think it is damaging to the ECF for this dispute to go on. Given Lara's comments it seems unlikely that Alex's resignation is an end to the matter. So again, if they cannot accept the harm Lara has suffered was accidental rather than malicious, I think it is appropriate they present their case to either the board or an EGM.




* Incidentally I believe "Never explain, never apologise, it makes you look weak" was actually spoken by John Wayne, not Benjamin Disraeli, as attributed by the Giddins' Blog. Disraeli said "Never complain, never explain". Since never complaining would be anathema to Mr Giddins, he can continue in his dislike of Disraeli with a clear conscience.
It is Raymond Keene's twitter feed which keeps implying that Lara is at fault, questions her competance to run the event and demands her resignation. If Lara's supporters are willing to concede that CJ was guilty of nothing more than an overreaction then his supporters should concede that Lara had no homophobic intent and help her make South Shields (not North as I put earlier for some daft reason) the best championship ever.

At the risk of inflaming the situation I would say that there seem to be some very two faced people in the chess world and that is not helping matters one bit.
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Andrew Farthing
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Andrew Farthing » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote: and help her make South Shields (not North as I put earlier for some daft reason) the best championship ever.
Perhaps not so daft - the venue address is Parks Leisure Centre, Howden Road, North Shields, NE99 6TL.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:03 pm

Andrew Farthing wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote: and help her make South Shields (not North as I put earlier for some daft reason) the best championship ever.
Perhaps not so daft - the venue address is Parks Leisure Centre, Howden Road, North Shields, NE99 6TL.
Thanks Andrew, I thought I was right first time but Alex referred to South Shields.
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Paul Cooksey

Re: My Resignation

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:51 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:If Lara's supporters are willing to concede that CJ was guilty of nothing more than an overreaction then his supporters should concede that Lara had no homophobic intent and help her make {edit: 2012} the best championship ever.
As I understand it, Alex does not accept CJs statement of regret that he overreacted, made on 7-Aug-11, should be an end to the matter. He continues to call for CJs resignation.

I am not aware of anyone saying Lara had homophobic intent. I don't believe anyone is threatening to disrupt the 2012 British. But I think it is fair to say Alex has implied that Lara might feel it necessary to resign if CJ does not. Given it seems unlikely CJ will resign, I think it is appropriate to ask Alex and Lara to clarify their position.

I have explained at more length than I imagine most people wanted to hear, that, based on what I know at this time, I do not think an EGM should ask CJ to resign. But if Alex thinks it necessary, he can make the opposite case.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:53 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:If Lara's supporters are willing to concede that CJ was guilty of nothing more than an overreaction then his supporters should concede that Lara had no homophobic intent and help her make {edit: 2012} the best championship ever.
As I understand it, Alex does not accept CJs statement of regret that he overreacted, made on 7-Aug-11, should be an end to the matter. He continues to call for CJs resignation.

I am not aware of anyone saying Lara had homophobic intent. I don't believe anyone is threatening to disrupt the 2012 British. But I think it is fair to say Alex has implied that Lara might feel it necessary to resign if CJ does not. Given it seems unlikely CJ will resign, I think it is appropriate to ask Alex and Lara to clarify their position.

I have explained at more length than I imagine most people wanted to hear, that, based on what I know at this time, I do not think an EGM should ask CJ to resign. But if Alex thinks it necessary, he can make the opposite case.
Are we not at the stage where an EGM would risk disrupting the run-up to the British Championships? Does anyone know whether we are going to see a large turn-out from GMs this year or not?

Richard Bates
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:04 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:If Lara's supporters are willing to concede that CJ was guilty of nothing more than an overreaction then his supporters should concede that Lara had no homophobic intent and help her make {edit: 2012} the best championship ever.
As I understand it, Alex does not accept CJs statement of regret that he overreacted, made on 7-Aug-11, should be an end to the matter. He continues to call for CJs resignation.

I am not aware of anyone saying Lara had homophobic intent. I don't believe anyone is threatening to disrupt the 2012 British. But I think it is fair to say Alex has implied that Lara might feel it necessary to resign if CJ does not. Given it seems unlikely CJ will resign, I think it is appropriate to ask Alex and Lara to clarify their position.

I have explained at more length than I imagine most people wanted to hear, that, based on what I know at this time, I do not think an EGM should ask CJ to resign. But if Alex thinks it necessary, he can make the opposite case.
I suppose it could be pointed out that the President has already offered his resignation once, and had it rejected...

Ernie Lazenby

Re: My Resignation

Post by Ernie Lazenby » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:10 pm

I believe that CJ considers this forum an irrelevance as I am minded to think it is. Whatever is posted on here no matter how well meant is meaningless if those who attend the AGM sit as quite as church mice or worse just agree with CJ or his illustrious representative has to say. I think this forum so far as ECF matters is concerned is a bit like the Sun newspaper, only certain types read it and other dismiss it as a comic providing amusement.

Sorry but thats how I feel borne out of frustration resulting from endless repeats of the same without anyone, and I do mean anyone, getting a grip and doing something positive to resolve it. If no one who is in a position to do so is going to grasp the nettle , further discussion is a pointless waste of time.

BTW I am having eyesight problems so forgive any typos of gramatical errors; if there are such it keeps Steve 'I have a university education' Giddins amused and gives him something to write about. Very difficult to know which camp hes in is'nt it.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:20 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:If Lara's supporters are willing to concede that CJ was guilty of nothing more than an overreaction then his supporters should concede that Lara had no homophobic intent and help her make {edit: 2012} the best championship ever.
As I understand it, Alex does not accept CJs statement of regret that he overreacted, made on 7-Aug-11, should be an end to the matter. He continues to call for CJs resignation.

I am not aware of anyone saying Lara had homophobic intent. I don't believe anyone is threatening to disrupt the 2012 British. But I think it is fair to say Alex has implied that Lara might feel it necessary to resign if CJ does not. Given it seems unlikely CJ will resign, I think it is appropriate to ask Alex and Lara to clarify their position.

I have explained at more length than I imagine most people wanted to hear, that, based on what I know at this time, I do not think an EGM should ask CJ to resign. But if Alex thinks it necessary, he can make the opposite case.
I suppose it could be pointed out that the President has already offered his resignation once, and had it rejected...
It would be interesting to see him put himself up for a confidence vote among a wider body now.

I agree with Ernie's last post. The vast majority of those who have acquainted themselves with what seems to be going on thinks that there are questions to be answered. Those who do not so think are singled out for honour in Ray Keene's tweets. So this forum has pretty much done its job, and the ball is in the court of the many and various members of Council.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: My Resignation

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:24 pm

Ernie Lazenby wrote: BTW I am having eyesight problems so forgive any typos of gramatical errors; if there are such it keeps Steve 'I have a university education' Giddins amused and gives him something to write about. Very difficult to know which camp hes in is'nt it.
One could speculate. I missed his reports on Hastings this year. Whatever one may think of what he writes at times, he does write well and has a sharp wit. Though I too think the leading chess publications should be covering this by now, not just blogs. The idea of interviews published in chess magazines that someone floated wasn't that bad an idea. Though these interviews would be slightly trickier than the ones published in recent years (some of which have been very good). I would be shocked if Kingpin won't be covering this.

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