Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mark Howitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mark Howitt » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:13 pm

It's pretty obvious that a lot of Yorkshire players that they don't care about an ECF grade... some don't care about grades at all, even some highly rated players. I look forward to seeing the figures of how many people actually pay the chess tax. A Yorkshire grade is enough for many players.

Maybe the YCA should get clubs to find out how many of their members want to pay extra.

Mark Howitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mark Howitt » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:17 pm

Right... this is the last post I'm doing this because it's too much time. I played in the Yorkshire league for 12 years and was never asked directly for a headcount charge of £6- neither were members of clubs I played for.

Don't get this idea that there are loads of super dedicated players wanting to play Saturday chess in Yorkshire. Teams still default boards and matches... there are some dedicated members, but many of them will be ECF members already. Many teams struggle to transport their team from one city to another.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:24 pm

Mark Howitt wrote: Maybe the YCA should get clubs to find out how many of their members want to pay extra.
As I see it, the Yorkshire County Association have made it a condition of taking part in the Saturday League. It's a gamble of sorts, because players could just decline to take part under those conditions.

In the rest of the country, national grading is sufficiently highly regarded that leagues will probably get away with it. One ticking bomb will be that the ECF will inevitably require more money, so the £ 12 cost won't be held. The other ticking bomb is that it becomes more difficult to recruit new players or entice back retired ones.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:39 pm

Mark Howitt wrote:Right... this is the last post I'm doing this because it's too much time. I played in the Yorkshire league for 12 years and was never asked directly for a headcount charge of £6- neither were members of clubs I played for.

Don't get this idea that there are loads of super dedicated players wanting to play Saturday chess in Yorkshire. Teams still default boards and matches... there are some dedicated members, but many of them will be ECF members already. Many teams struggle to transport their team from one city to another.
Netherton would have paid the £6 registration fee to the YCA on your behalf, how the that was accounted for within fees you paid to the club is something you'd need to ask them.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:42 pm

Mark Howitt wrote:It's pretty obvious that a lot of Yorkshire players that they don't care about an ECF grade... some don't care about grades at all, even some highly rated players. I look forward to seeing the figures of how many people actually pay the chess tax. A Yorkshire grade is enough for many players.

Maybe the YCA should get clubs to find out how many of their members want to pay extra.
The Yorkshire grading system arose after years of schism with the ECF which we're trying to move away from. As was pointed out during the meeting the Yorkshire grading system relies on somebody being willing to put in the (unpaid) hours necessary to do it. As I pointed out yesterday the last time a YCA grader retired we had one hell of a job finding a successor.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:44 pm

Mark Howitt wrote: I played in the Yorkshire league for 12 years and was never asked directly for a headcount charge of £6- neither were members of clubs I played for.
Presumably it was hidden in the club subscription and treated as part of the entry fee to the competition. So if you have 20 members of whom 15 play in the Saturday league in an average season, you either make sure you cover £ 6 per head for everyone and put the £ 30 surplus to your reserves, or you charge £ 4.50 per head and accept the minor cross-subsidy. You can do the same with £ 13 per head, but the hidden numbers are bigger.

Perhaps the Yorkshire county asked for £ 6 from everyone as a condition of access to the Yorks grading system and threw in the right to play in the Saturday league.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:12 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote: The Yorkshire grading system arose after years of schism with the ECF which we're trying to move away from.

This is what used to be said, dating from twelve years ago.
http://web.archive.org/web/200410120629 ... adpoly.htm

It would have been simple enough on paper for the Yorkshire County Association to discontinue local grading and submit all the local leagues to the BCF under its own name. That way it would pocket all the votes at the cost of being responsible for raising money for the then BCF. Any local league not willing to pay would have been excluded from national grading. That was why in most of the rest of the country, non territorial leagues were willing to sign up.

Paul Buswell
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul Buswell » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:38 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:Regarding game fee liability - J Bloggs plays 10 games in the Yorkshire league while stating he will never become an ECF member under any circumstances. How much will the Yorkshire league be charged for, £12 equivalent to bronze membership or £20 for ten games at £2 game fee? The latter case was a key plank of the no argument yesterday so it's important to get this clarified.
I assume it must be £20. If this situation arises within the Hastings club - and we have one active player who has declared their intention to resign ECF Membership as a result of the new scheme - then we could not in good conscience make J Bloggs a member against their will. If they play then our club will need to account for the sum of the £2s incurred. Our club AGM will consider a proposal to pass the game fee on to the players concerned.

PB

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:39 pm

Angus French wrote: All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not. No grades are hidden.
Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members. Local Yorkshire leagues are affected, as no games played in them will qualify for national grading. Perhaps the CEO said something different, or no-one asked him that direct question.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Angus French wrote: All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not. No grades are hidden.
Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members. Local Yorkshire leagues are affected, as no games played in them will qualify for national grading. Perhaps the CEO said something different, or no-one asked him that direct question.
It may well be that the Yorkshire evening leagues no longer qualify for ECF grading. When I said that those leagues were unaffected I meant that at present they pay no game fee and are not affiliated to the ECF so contrary to some of the scaremongering this will not change.
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Mike Truran
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:21 pm

In the 4NCL it's effectively £ 27 a head, rather than £ 6.
:?: :?: :?: :?:

4NCL players don't just play in the 4NCL. They are paying an upgrade from either Bronze or Silver to play in a FIDE rated event (and can then also play in congresses and other FIDE rated events such as e2e4 at no extra cost), but they are certainly not paying £27 just to play in the 4NCL.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:22 pm

Another question - the YCA treasurer gave me some membership forms as I was leaving. They referred to a £1 charge if the company is wound up. I thought this requirement had been removed but maybe that was a proposal that never got off the ground. Could somebody please clarify.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:45 pm

Mike Truran wrote: but they are certainly not paying £27 just to play in the 4NCL.
If it's the only FIDE rated chess they play, as it is for many players, then it is. The younger players, according to Ben Purton, find it a particular problem. Those that currently pay get a better financial deal next season with the anticipated reduction in club membership fees and board fees for county matches.

Mike Truran
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:52 pm

Sorry to press the point, but no it isn't. If 4NCL players are already playing league and congress chess (as virtually all do re league chess, and many do re congress chess), then they are paying the top-up from Bronze or Silver respectively to Gold to play in the 4NCL, not the whole £27.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:03 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members.
That's not a unique concession (see below).
Angus French wrote:All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not.
That's not correct. From the MO agreement which Leicestershire signed in 2006
Leicestershire MO Agreement wrote:12. MO shall be entitled to submit for grading the results of ECF Members in non
registered events.
I assume that Yorkshire and other MOs have a similar provision. We have no such non registered events in Leicestershire but in a non registered event within an MO territory, a game is graded for the ECF member, but not for the non-ECF member. These events are noted 'RM' in Richard Haddrell's list of events submitted for grading. I understand that that is what happens with local leagues such as the Sheffield league.

For example, take a look at http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=26471 ... =453339798. The player had an 'E' category grade in 2006 despite playing 41 games. This is because he was not an ECF member, so his 32 games in the Sheffield league were not included in his grading calculation. His grade was based purely on 9 games played in the Yorkshire league.

However, one of this players 32 Sheffield league games was against me. I was an ECF member, so the game counted in my grading calculations for that year.

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