Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mike Truran
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:29 am

You don't see even a hint of a connection between the unwillingness of Yorkshire organisers and players to set up local FIDE rated events and paying £ 27 per head to the ECF
They didn't set up local FIDE rated events in game fee world either. As usual, you're being disingenuous.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:35 am

And the Yorkshire congresses really would have had a huge problem remaining ECF graded, because the current membership
rates in Yorkshire are hugely short of what would work economically.

This should at least cover the Opens almost perfectly, and the majors well enough. Beneath that I really don't know, but maybe those sections are local enough to survive on local grades anyway.

There have I think been occasional suggestions of FIDE rating the Yorkshire league, but never brought in. Historically an awful lot of the people playing would have been too low to qualify of course, although that's maybe changed somewhat now?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:39 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Historically an awful lot of the people playing would have been too low to qualify of course, although that's maybe changed somewhat now?
Yes; the rating floor is either 1001 now, or soon will be. So that's anyone with a grade of about 50, really.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:41 am

Mick Norris wrote:There can be tremendous problems this side of the Pennines getting a visa to get into Yorkshire, and even then you can't guarantee your passport will be accepted at the border :wink:
Not sure if it is apocryphal, but I was at a funeral in Wigan last year and some old fellow told me that his dad was born in some town in Yorkshire which was reallocated to Lancashire under the 1972 (?) local government boundary changes. Rather than be buried in his home town, his will directed that he be buried in a churchyard ten miles further across the Pennines, in case anyone in years to come should mistake him for a Lanky!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:44 am

Mike Truran wrote: They didn't set up local FIDE rated events in game fee world either. As usual, you're being disingenuous.
There hasn't been a Game Fee world in FIDE rated events since before the establishment of the ECF. The ECF interpreted a FIDE requirement that everyone needed to be a member of a National Federation to mean a requirement for individual guarantor membership as a condition of taking part in FIDE rated events. In a way you are right. The Northern counties didn't leap to establish FIDE rated events when they could do so at the MO/Bronze cost for their local players. They would be even less likely to do so at Gold cost.

Cost must come into it somewhere, otherwise the ECF could put membership up to £ 100 per year and still expect the same numbers.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:56 am

MartinCarpenter wrote: This should at least cover the Opens almost perfectly, and the majors well enough. Beneath that I really don't know, but maybe those sections are local enough to survive on local grades anyway.
Even if full of non-members, Congresses can be included in National grading at a cost of £ 6 per non-member. For that matter it will be £ 6 in addition per Bronze member. Assuming entry fees are increased to include this, will this put league players off playing a single local Congress? I recall northern Congress organisers kicking up a tremendous fuss when Game Fee rates went up by 10p per game or so. Thus an extra 50p on an Entry Fee was regarded as a serious disincentive. Whether that was really the case is another matter, but Congresses are going to cost more to current MO member as well as to those not currently members.

Mike Truran
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:12 am

In a way you are right
:shock: :shock:

Mick Norris
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:20 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:There can be tremendous problems this side of the Pennines getting a visa to get into Yorkshire, and even then you can't guarantee your passport will be accepted at the border :wink:
Not sure if it is apocryphal, but I was at a funeral in Wigan last year and some old fellow told me that his dad was born in some town in Yorkshire which was reallocated to Lancashire under the 1972 (?) local government boundary changes. Rather than be buried in his home town, his will directed that he be buried in a churchyard ten miles further across the Pennines, in case anyone in years to come should mistake him for a Lanky!
Possibly Todmorden, which has changed hands a number of times I think - there is a stone marking the "old" Lancs-Yorks border in Todmorden, near the Police station if I remember rightly

Strangely, Lancs chess doesn't recognise the old border with Yorks, going for the post 1974 version, but doesn't apply the same logic with G Man :)
Last edited by Mick Norris on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:20 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:And as FIDE rated events in Yorkshire are as rare as hen's teeth, what's the point of Gold membership for them anyway if they aren't willing to travel?
That's only part of the problem - if you run events in Yorkshire, you want to attract people from outside Yorkshire

There can be tremendous problems this side of the Pennines getting a visa to get into Yorkshire, and even then you can't guarantee your passport will be accepted at the border :wink:
I'm assuming that this is a joke but Yorkshire does feature Scarborough, the UK's second largest congress. York congress is well established and features many players from outside the county and Doncaster has grown to be even bigger. Two years ago in the first small Harrogate congress (organised by the North Chess Fund) and held very much out of season four of my five opponents were from outside Yorkshire.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:38 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote: I'm assuming that this is a joke but Yorkshire does feature Scarborough, the UK's second largest congress.
The complete list of graded events is at http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/events1112.htm

Three of them are flagged RM, which means only games by Direct and MO members are included in grading.

Brighouse Quickplay
Hull Congress
Huddersfield Grosvenor Rapidplay

It's subject to confirmation, but the expectation is the RM facility is being withdrawn. So these Congresses may/will have to split themselves into member and non member sections if they want to avoid the £ 6 charge. Other Congresses may do the same. I don't know of any adult standard play Congresses currently outside of national grading, but local rapid-plays are not always graded.

harrylamb
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by harrylamb » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:23 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
There can be tremendous problems this side of the Pennines getting a visa to get into Yorkshire, and even then you can't guarantee your passport will be accepted at the border
Even so I find getting a Lancashire visa even harder even though I was born in Lancashire. Often I prefer to get a Yorkshire visa with all the difficulties that implies. Drive warily round Heywood watching out for the local vigilantes. Then once safely in Yorkshire I back-track across the undefended Yorkshire Lancashire boundary near Todmorden. And bingo I am in the county of my birth.
No taxation without representation

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Harry, you are always most welcome in God’s own county – as are all chess players from Lancashire and elsewhere.

I am finding this thread somewhat amusing that certain people are jumping to conclusions about chess in Yorkshire when they have seemingly not played in the county. I find the whole scenario of the 3 tiers of ECF membership and the huge increase in game fee a big worry to the Yorkshire league. I suppose the big hike in game fee is supposed to encourage all league players becoming ECF members. After all if you are likely to play 6 graded games it pays for you to become at least a bronze member.

I can confirm the YCA have indeed voted to continue supporting the ECF membership scheme and we will continue to encourage players in Yorkshire to become members. We will continue to pay ECF game fee on games played in the Yorkshire Saturday league. The Yorkshire league has 3 divisions and had 32 teams of 8 players playing last season. The big worry I have is will all those teams return to play next season or are we going to drop in numbers because of the extra cost. People tend to vote with their feet but we hope our product will stand for itself and we will see numbers relatively unaffected.

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My comments in this forum are personal views and not necessarily representing the Yorkshire Chess Association.

Martin Carpenter
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Martin Carpenter » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:17 pm

I've certainly never had trouble with wandering to and fro over the border :)

Hopefully the top of the Yorkshire league should be fine, the lower divisions more worrying perhaps.

Regarding the local leagues I just checked for York and in the first division 20 out of 70 players (7 teams) seem to playing in just the local league. York has an unsually high number of Yorkshire league teams and a local congress so I'd expect most of the other leagues to have a higher proportion than this.
(The second division is similar except for the Universities second team which used far too many players to work in an ECF graded league.).

Now people playing just in local Yorkshire leagues really aren't gaining anything from membership on a personal level, so you'd have to do something collective to cover the cost. That seems to be just about possible in principle, but also non trivial enough that I can't really see it happening anytime soon.

Mark Howitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mark Howitt » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:51 pm

Just got to say... repressing freedom of speech is one of the worst things you can do in society. So I'll publish the post in full with the real name on my blog- if anything I underegged the description, and cheats shouldn't be allowed to cheat.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:59 pm

Mark Howitt wrote:Just got to say... repressing freedom of speech is one of the worst things you can do in society. So I'll publish the post in full with the real name on my blog- if anything I underegged the description, and cheats shouldn't be allowed to cheat.
There are places where freedom of speech rules apply, and a privately-owned internet forum is not one of them.