ECF: One member, One Vote

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:09 am

If anyone needs another forum section off the home page then please let me know

A section name and a brief description is all it takes to bring that addition under consideration for inclusion
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JustinHorton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:23 pm

Tal used to watch chess TV programmes for beginners, apparently.
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Simon Spivack
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Simon Spivack » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:52 pm

FM Jack Rudd wrote:A 215 who goes to Barnstaple chess club nearly every week writes: the opinions and knowledge of players graded under 120 can be surprisingly valuable. It's widely accepted that one of the best ways to learn about a subject is to try to teach it to someone else;
I believe that may be the key point: a willingness to learn. In the instances I was thinking of there was no desire to learn. When I was a club secretary one of the things I did from time to time (this was primarily a match playing club, so there weren't many casual games or conversations) was play or talk to players with a far lower grade than mine. In one conversation I asked whether my interlocutor read any chess books, he replied that he had already read enough books! Another instance, in a joint analysis I mentioned that in this sort of position the two bishops constituted a significant advantage over the knights because it was a largely open board with few fixed points for the knights, I was told that this only applied in an ending! After a minute or two I gave up. Yet another instance, one player played a totally absurd sacrifice with no compensation whatsoever, I told him that he was lost (this was informal); he then suggested an even more preposterous follow-up sacrifice and remarked, with a glint of triumph, "you didn't consider that, did you?" I responded with the restrained, "no, I did not" and demonstrated a refutation. I have never met anyone in person who has stated that he has learnt from someone far weaker as a result of instruction from them. I can accept that a question can make one concentrate one's mind, though.

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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Simon Spivack » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:57 pm

JustinHorton wrote:Tal used to watch chess TV programmes for beginners, apparently.
Well, I'll try not to be too negative here. There may be all sorts of reasons why he did that; the presenters may have been friends of his, Tal may have been watching for pleasure and it may even have been a pleasant background sound whilst he read "The Princess of Babylon". :-)

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:35 pm

i remember being amazed at Fischer's patience with much weaker player than I, bending his ear while they offered their views.
Once, when I mentioned this to a third party, he suggested that this showed Fischer's consummate professionalism. However weak they are, there may a kernel of truth in what they say.
Analysing with Tal, something I did only a few times, was like an amazing cornucopia of ideas gushing forth. Analysing with? Truth to tell, he talking and my listening.
Analysing with Fischer was a little strange. 'What do you think of this?' he might ask. I likened that to Einstein asking a 10 year old his opinion of The Theory of Relativity. Interestingly he never gave away his own ideas. By the way, he learnt more from our blitz games than I did. The first series I was able to equalise from the opening with the White pieces. The second series I could not even do that. Look at his play against Petrosian with the black pieces in the USSR v Rest of the World Match in 1970 and you will find some echoes of our games.
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Ben Purton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:52 am

First of all Simon, the fact your largest paragraph is against my spelling , says volumes for the fact you don't seem to care about others views on Chess. You question my education, depends on how you perceive a good education. To me your attitude is probably the sole barrier against Chess as a sport . During even my junior chess, all the parents ask which school you went to and roll your eyes up when you mention a state school. Unfortunately for chess, us "commoners" make up the population majority, so without them Chess is behind. I like to think my education relative to situation is a very good one. I am dyslexic and this is probably something you will have some "I asked an old English lecturer blah blah " motley argument against. Yes there are spell checkers , but I like to think that everyone isn't a nit-picker like yourself.

The thing that made me laugh is the patronizing towards my knowledge of the chess scene, my mum ran all the junior teams in Berkshire for the best part of the decade, I captained(managed) a team in ECC at 18, youngest ever I was told by the organisers from Belgium. So Ive grown up in chess, I have found two sponsors for my team in the last 5 years, so I do know at least something, despite my lack of spelling capabilities.

Can I really go on London league site? O wow, GM's actually play in it? No way!. I mean really. The amount of GM V GM games in London league is probably confined to a handful and the main issue is would anyone seriously travel to watch one game of two 2480's playing each other. You talk about the spoilt for choice. If I want to watch and play GM's at the moment I have two amazing ones playing in my living room!
It has always been the case that club nights have been dominated by team matches for many clubs. The first club I belonged to was Islington; that had an active club night on Fridays, sans matches, but few of the stronger players put in an appearance. There are still clubs with a non-team ethos on certain evenings
Thanks for that, I did say they were on the decline, not over?


Before the growth of ICC and Internet chess in general, club nights played an essential role in promoting a players game.
When I said this, I am displaying that I feel Internet chess improves chess players. Clearly alot of you disagree but I can name players who play 8 hours a day on the ICC and improve 40 points a tournaments. There are hundreds of examples, alot are obviously juniors who can take more in. Before the Internet clubs nights were important to alot of players to "keep fit".

yet games like football are even more sexist
Your meaning that the womens game is viewed "lesser" than a man I assume. But their conditions are so much different you cant compare football to chess.
Maybe your talking about American football? Doesn't Women's football have a professional league. Has its FA cup shown on BBC, get commented on Sports news. Have mass sponsorship deals.

Football has a far better atomosphere in general for women than Chess does. The fact about this world is, that sex sells. If you are beautiful and can sort of sing, your worth millions more than someone with a degree. Thats a sad truth. So in Chess the way we get sponsorship is to Sex it up, it might not sound desirable. But let me give you my un-educated view on Chess countries:

Ukraine, Russia & China, Georgia, India: Most have larger populations and more so , chess is respected massively and lucrative relatively. The governments all support chess with even some having wages relative to titles.

"The New Era"- One we need to follow: Is one where countries expand on the grounds of role models, Polgar in Hungary has seen the new wave of Junior Women. My 'education' on this is far superior to yours, as alot of them have played for my team and I've dicussed what inspired them to play. This is why I think Harriet and Jovanka , both great players, should coach at the world juniors. If I had a daughter(bit young I'm afraid), Id rather they were coached by them than nearly any male coach. On the grounds as it is easier to look up to someone of the same sex.

For you Simon, feminist, they tend to idolise the Pankhursts. Similar Human traits could be seen in young girls.

You haven't really addressed any chess points here , especially about Womens chess. You answer a question with another question. I might talk passionately about Womens chess now, more so than ever before. I just can see the support our best talents get it. It isn't enough , we need something. What Claire does at grass routes is fantastic. But we need some olympiad boards. When the girls get to the best in England, they need to get to a worldwide standard. Chess is global. Sadly as Vietnam is sadly showing, we have a long way to go. To be that great talented country that has produced a world champion contender and another super-GM. If you have any actual suggestions for womens chess that could even be considered in practice please say.


I do think you can learn from lower rated players. This is obvious, my main coach is 2450 fide but I can outplay him in certain openings and when we play the same line again he finds "improvements" so of course stronger players can learn from "weaker" ones. I do however think at clubs there is not as much willingness to play large differences in grade. I think 5-min and 15-min pools on ICC are great inventions as you can play almost anyone, the computer chooses. I would never say you cant learn from anyone. As Stewart said, Fischer learnt from there blitz games. All I will say is if I use tonight as an example. I've played three OTB games, a club match at Hayes which I won. And two loses at home in blitz V my housemate(s). I learnt alot more from my loses at blitz and there alot better than anyone here at least, so its probably more likely you learn from stronger defeats.


It saddens me that if I want to play for Antony I have to call both of you my team 'mates'.

Kind regards

Ben

PS: Ive tried to not spell things wrong, I wouldnt want my education to make you blush.
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JustinHorton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:39 am

Ben: I went to a comprehensive and I value good English as much as anybody who went to a more exclusive school. I'm aware that there's educational snobbery in the world of junior chess (and adult chess too) but do not confuse this with the desire to be able to comprehend what people are writing. To this latter end, accurate English is important.

If you struggle with it, for dyslexia or any other reason, my advice would be: cut down on the length of your postings. It will add to their readability. Remember that the draft function is your friend.

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Ben Purton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:27 pm

So your again saying the post above is un-readable?

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
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Simon Spivack
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Simon Spivack » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:56 pm

Ben Purton wrote:First of all Simon, the fact your largest paragraph is against my spelling , says volumes for the fact you don't seem to care about others views on Chess. You question my education, depends on how you perceive a good education.
It is unfortunate that a well meaning suggestion is considered patronising. I note, optimistically, however, that you have, at least in part, taken it on board. Your response does underline the difficulty; I don't care if one or two words are misspelt, we all do that, it is the problem of communicating in an intelligible manner that I am more concerned with. You have a serious problem with both your reading and your writing.

Your very first sentence above is wrong, I do care what others have to say; you are quite wrong to invite others to infer that the only thing I object to is your atrocious spelling and that that was pretty well everything I wrote.
Ben Purton wrote: To me your attitude is probably the sole barrier against Chess as a sport .
I could, I suppose, quote Paul's accurate description of this sort of
sentence, for it doesn't make much sense.

I agree with Martin Regan that the whole thing was half-baked. It wasn't even handled properly. For instance when Kate Hoey was the Minister of Sport her boss was Chris Smith the Culture Secretary, he was the one who would have made the decision and should have been approached: I know this because of what I was told by the then Chairman of the Parliamentary Select Committee for Scottish Affairs, whose business it was to know whom to approach for what purpose. He also confirmed that the whole exercise was futile. For the record, I did write in, via my local MP; of course it did not make a blind bit of difference.
Ben Purton wrote: During even my junior chess, all the parents ask which school you went to and roll your eyes up when you mention a state school. Unfortunately for chess, us "commoners" make up the population majority, so without them Chess is behind. I like to think my education relative to situation is a very good one.
The only person to have given comfort to you in this thread, and he should hang his head in shame for doing so, went to a posh school. I don't believe Paul McKeown did go to a public school, he probably went to a grammar, although it is not something I have asked him; my surmise is based upon the part of the country he comes from, which has an excellent state sector. I, too, went to a comprehensive; let me add that, no matter how bad your school was, mine was worse; for instance the head was only interested in winning a prize at the school raffle, the one he had selected before the draw, he was invariably successful in that; he had the gall to tell a complaining parent that she "could educate her children herself!" My physics master could not master English, my English teacher was content to remain a pretty dolly bird. I moved to a sixth form college at the earliest opportunity. I could not give a damm about someone's background, can you say the same?
Ben Purton wrote: I am dyslexic and this is probably something you will have some "I asked an old English lecturer blah blah " motley argument against. Yes there are spell checkers ,
Well I'm dyslexic too; I can add that I am myopic and have trouble with both my eyes, having cataracts, fluid in both through holes, dryness and some after effects from a partially successful operation. Effectively I am reduced to half an eye, if I concentrate hard for more than about fifteen minutes this eye gets clouded, which means I have to write these posts at a faster rate than I should prefer. Dyslexia is a bathetic excuse.

I should add that I should not ask an English lecturer about dyslexia, a somewhat contentious subject anyhow. I also have to ask what your objection is to asking someone old? I, myself, am not concerned about someone's age; just so long as we can interact well.
Ben Purton wrote: but I like to think that everyone isn't a nit-picker like yourself.
It is not fussy or pedantic to object to the vast ocean of mistakes that you make; to reiterate, what you write is often incomprehensible.

Jumping well down your post:
Ben Purton wrote:
For you Simon, feminist, they tend to idolise the Pankhursts. Similar Human traits could be seen in young girls.
As always it is not entirely clearly what it is you are on about. If you are calling me a feminist then this is one to add to the list; I have been called: fascist, lefty, Commie, right-wing bigot, anti-Semite, Jewboy, Kike, racist: I was beaten up after Powell's Rivers of Blood Speech, I have been kicked on the back of the head by anti-Semites.

If you are insinuating that I am an admirer of the Pankhursts, then all I can say is that I do not approve of the criminal damage that many of the Suffragettes inflicted; but I do strongly support the right of women to vote.

Your second sentence is unworthy of comment.

Jumping to the end of your post:
Ben Purton wrote: It saddens me that if I want to play for Antony I have to call both of you my team 'mates'.
Well at least spell Anthony's name correctly. Tony is an outstanding captain who took over at a difficult time. He puts a huge amount of work into running the team; in my opinion he could be the equal of the late David Foley-Comer, especially when allowing for the far more meagre resources available to Tony. He is already one of the great Middlesex captains.

If you refuse to play because of the presence of Paul and I, then that is very unfair to Tony: who has had no role in these proceedings. If you do turn up, I shall call you Ben.

A final tip is that it is a mistake to draw conclusions about an individual based upon an Internet discussion group.

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JustinHorton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:58 pm

Ben Purton wrote:So your again saying the post above is un-readable?

Ben
It is less than reader-friendly.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Claire Summerscale
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Claire Summerscale » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:56 pm

Ben
Correct spelling is important. It adds credibility to your message.

Anyway, back to the chess.

I just wanted to make a couple of comments on a few of your previous postings:

"You should have at least some women coaches to inspire the girls."
I would have been delighted to send Harriet and Jovanka as coaches to the World and European Youth, but they were both unfortunately unavailable.

"we had a pre-worlds coaching weekend which was a positive "change"."
A junior coaching weekend was held prior to the World and European Championships last year as well.

"some coaches should be brought in on ECF Dollar to help the gifted "future olympiad" players"
This has already happened and I hope will continue to happen. I organised for some of the JR Trust money to pay for coaching for some of our strongest players.

Claire

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Ben Purton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:19 pm

"some coaches should be brought in on ECF Dollar to help the gifted "future olympiad" players"
This has already happened and I hope will continue to happen. I organised for some of the JR Trust money to pay for coaching for some of our strongest players.


Care to explain who and how Claire.

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

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Ben Purton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:23 pm

Also in theroy why have you now got all these GM's in your female team... I thought it was suppose to be for English womens progression.....Your only English women at the first weekend is the most established one, who is in least need for good games.

Perhaps change the name to "Same Old 4NCL team with money?"

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Claire Summerscale
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Claire Summerscale » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:45 pm

Ben
Not sure what's prompted the sudden aggressive attack on me. I certainly have no intention of replying to something so rude. If you want to ask me a question, you are very welcome to email or phone.

Very happy to have an email exchange with you about the coaching as well but I'm pleased to say that players who have received ecf sponsored coaching include Yang-Fan Zhou and Felix Ynojosa.

You should contact Peter Purland or Andrew Martin about future coaching opportunities.

Claire

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Ben Purton
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Re: ECF: One member, One Vote

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:47 pm

How is that rude Claire, its a valid point and im not alone in wondering why Pride and Pred have now no women players. Your basicaly going against surely the moral you stand for. I thought the name meant what it says. Like Pride in womens chess and anti-prejudice. If it does not then fine. I use to think the team were quite a cool idea, but now it is the same as others. If Im allowed to have my spelling and education credibility attacked on here, why is asking why you dont have women such a rude question. Are you saying there arent enough good women in England to play in division one?

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

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