British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Sabrina Chevannes
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British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Sabrina Chevannes » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:10 pm

Could someone please confirm how the age groups are calculated for the British Junior sections of this year's championships?

There is no clear information on the form, nor on their website. Many of my students feel that they may have entered the "wrong" sections due to this.
The British Junior sections have always been calculated based on the academic year (Sep-Aug) and not the way FIDE does it (calendar year). Has this now been changed? If so, why?

The children play in their age group throughout the year and it seems strange to change it just for the British as now the children will be out of sync to what they usually play in. I know this has put off some people as they are in a completely different age group to what they are used to.

Please can someone clarify the situation as I cannot find information about these age calculations anywhere.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:22 pm

Sabrina Chevannes wrote:Could someone please confirm how the age groups are calculated for the British Junior sections of this year's championships?
The issue was raised last year
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2873

It's now by calendar year, rather than school year, the same as FIDE.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:31 pm

I've managed to find the information online: http://britishchesschampionships.co.uk/ ... pionships/

This looks like a copy-paste from the hard copy of the entry form.

Sabrina Chevannes
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Sabrina Chevannes » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:34 pm

Yes Alex, this is the only information that I could find and it is rather subtle. What is not on the entry form is an explanation. With such a big change, surely it should be explained.

Thanks Roger for the link - I am shocked it has been like that for the last couple of years as I know some people did not enter the correct section then!!

Richard Bates
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:25 pm

It was changed so that the British events could act as qualifiers for International Junior events wasn't it? Don't players have to put dates of birth on their entry forms?

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David Shepherd
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:45 pm

Yes the date is on the entry form, and the 1st of January date is also on the online entry form page. I am surprised and shocked if players have previously entered the wrong section, I presume this means they entered a section they were too old for?

Alex McFarlane
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Alex McFarlane » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:10 am

From the black box at the top of page 2 of the entry form ie the very beginning of the info after the cover page.

Championship events are open only to British Isles subjects or players resident therein for the past year, or those with British Overseas Dependent Territories Citizenship. In Junior Championships, ages relate to 1st January 2012 e.g. an Under 10 will be born in 2002 or later. All Junior Championships will include titles for at least one Boy and at least one Girl.

Each junior event also gives the relevant year stating born on or before xxxx.

This has been the case for several years. It standardises all events with the FIDE cut off as stated meaning that, if they so wish, junior selectors will see players competing in the appropriate FIDE category. Additionally it means that we have an understandable date for all British children. The September date is a mystery to most Scottish juniors and I think Irish as well.

The entry form does contain a lot of information which it is neccessary to read. The form is already 8 pages long. To put all the information needed opposite each event would significantly increase the costs of the printed entry form (or book as it would become!) If anyone thinks they can design a simpler version please submit it.

Lara Barnes
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Lara Barnes » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:42 am

It is very unlikely that players played in the wrong sections as each entry is checked by the entries secretary and players are contacted if they have entered the wrong section and asked if they will move to the correct one.

I thought the information on the entry form, and on the website was quite clear - I have had only 2 queries (out of over 220 junior entries) from parents and that was just to clarify that they had entered the correct section (child being 10 and playing in 'Under 10' because in January they were 9).

If anyone wants to suggest a better way of putting it I will be glad to consider replacing the information that is there.

Jim Wadsworth
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Jim Wadsworth » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:56 am

Lara Barnes wrote:I thought the information on the entry form, and on the website was quite clear - I have had only 2 queries (out of over 220 junior entries) from parents and that was just to clarify that they had entered the correct section (child being 10 and playing in 'Under 10' because in January they were 9).
I think it is extremely clear and find it surprising that anyone could possibly misinterpret it.

Keep up the great work Lara, looking forward to a fantastic event kicking off at the weekend!

Stewart Reuben
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:59 pm

The change was instigated in 2009 at my suggestion in conjunction with the then Junior Director, Peter Purland, and of course agreed by the Board. The reason was of course to make it more logical as a qualifying event for FIDE championships. The message has had 3 years to reach Sabrena.
I too think the entry form is perfectly clear. Indeed simpler than when I ran it. I thought then a GCSE in understanding the British entry form would have been about right.
That is not to say that people might misunderstand this, or any other rule. It is never possible to explain something to everybody.
There are small omissions in the form. Under 9 (2003 or later). Under 8 (2004 or later).

At the time the form was produced it was correct that FIDE Ratings went down to 1200. From 1 July they go down to 1000.

E Michael White
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by E Michael White » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:33 am

Sabrina Chevannes wrote:There is no clear information on the form,
Stewart Reuben wrote:I too think the entry form is perfectly clear
Jim Wadsworth wrote:I think it is extremely clear and find it surprising that anyone could possibly misinterpret it.
A good communicator needs to be skilled in seeing where or how others might misunderstand. If I were a junior I might enter by this route - ECF website - BCC thumbnail – red enter online button 14 lines down on the left. That takes me here :- https://britchess.wufoo.com/forms/z7x3k1/

where the age calculation is not shown. There is space on this form to say born 1998 etc or earlier but it doesn’t. If I were born 4 Mar 1999, thinking I am already 13 I might enter the U14. I would fill out this form and hand the keyboard to my parents to pay ! I probably wouldn’t want to read the rest of the literature. This may be a generational thing.
Richard Bates wrote:It was changed so that the British events could act as qualifiers for International Junior events wasn't it? Don't players have to put dates of birth on their entry forms?
Ok so I put my date of birth down as 4 Mar 1999 and the entry is checked by the ECF and accepted for the U14 when I could have entered the U13. I then wait 6 years and as a hard up student find my bank account has been hacked because I gave my date of birth to the ECF who left it on the SCCU website and distributed it to local graders etc one of whom may have had his unencrypted laptop stolen !

I guess Sabrina is right. If it were up to me I would take out all references to “ages at 1 January 2012” because it doesn’t help and stick to a year of birth definition of age eligibility.

E Michael White
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by E Michael White » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:45 pm

There are currently 2 versions of the online entry form on the ECF Website

If you go in via :
  1. ECF site - British Champ thumbnail - entry Tab on the Menu Line - then 2nd line blue link "enter" you get this link-
    https://britchess.wufoo.com/forms/z7x3k1/
  2. ECF site - British Champ thumbnail – red enter online button 14 lines down on the left. That takes you here:-
    http://britishchesschampionships.co.uk/ ... ntry-form/
The second of these has a rough explanatory note concering ages, not very well located, after the submit button but the first does not have that note. Looks like a version control and multi-version problem.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:28 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:I too think the entry form is perfectly clear. Indeed simpler than when I ran it
Thank you Stewart. I spent a great deal of time trying to simplify the form. It is still not ideal obviously and probably needs someone else to make suggestions as you invariably reach the point where you know what you mean and miss other interpretations.

Due to my strained relationship with the ECF Board I have not been involved in the on-line version.

Sabrina Chevannes
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Sabrina Chevannes » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:22 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:The change was instigated in 2009 at my suggestion in conjunction with the then Junior Director, Peter Purland, and of course agreed by the Board. The reason was of course to make it more logical as a qualifying event for FIDE championships. The message has had 3 years to reach Sabrena.
I too think the entry form is perfectly clear. Indeed simpler than when I ran it. I thought then a GCSE in understanding the British entry form would have been about right.
That is not to say that people might misunderstand this, or any other rule. It is never possible to explain something to everybody.
There are small omissions in the form. Under 9 (2003 or later). Under 8 (2004 or later).

At the time the form was produced it was correct that FIDE Ratings went down to 1200. From 1 July they go down to 1000.
Thanks for the very sarcastic response Stuaart - really appreciated.

The fact that many people are still very confused does not make it PERFECTLY clear. It may be simpler than it was when you ran it, but that doesn't say much.

I haven't had to enter a junior age group myself for a long time so wouldn't know, but all I know is that my students were not completely clear and still are not clear. Therefore I started a thread to clarify it, which you have done. Forgive me for not trawling back through 3 years of forum threads to find the answer.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Junior age groups

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:05 am

If someone has asked about it, then by definition, it is not clear.

It is not at all surprising that the question has been asked, I have also been asked many times.

It might well be that there is a very clear explanation somewhere, but what is not clear is how do parents/people who do not already know about finding out about these things, find out about it?

Perhaps a note should be placed on the ECF junior section explaining about FIDE and ECF year groups and explaining which tournaments are FIDE age groups (The British, all junior International competitions, such as European Youth, World Youth, World Schools, Junior Olympiads etc etc ) and which are ECF age groups (EPSCA, London Junior, Yately, Swindon, ECF, Glorney etc etc)?

I do realise of course that the British is the only 'home tournament' which uses FIDE age groups, but over time, this may change.
Last edited by Krishna Shiatis on Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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