Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Alex McFarlane
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:32 am

Paul Cooksey wrote: Caesar's wife must be above suspicion.
Paul, for the avoidance of confusion, I am not married to Adam Raoof, never have been and never will be.

Yet again you jump to the wrong conclusion. :D :D

I trust that you will edit that posting to remove any possibility of it being assumed that Lara passed on confidential information to me. I think it was clearly indicated that I was (yet again) observing BOARD confidentiality.

Paul Cooksey

Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:42 am

Alex - are you saying the person who shared information with you is happy for you to use it in a way which invites criticism of the ECFs decision to hold the next championship at Torquay? And that that person was Adam?

I stand by the Caesar's wife comment. Unless Lara dissociates herself with your opinions, people are likely to assume you are speaking with at least her consent, if not on her behalf. I would say the same to Adam's partner.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:18 am

With respect I think Alex's criticisms are very minor, certainly in the context of some of the stuff that gets said on this forum. Alex has merely said that the board should, in his opinion, have looked a bit more closely at the possibility of postponing Torquay. That said my own opinion is that Torquay 2013 has been fixed for some time and that contracts have been signed so the right call has been made.
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Stewart Reuben
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:46 am

The ECF had a commitment to Torquay from 2011. It doesn't matter much whether that was a written or verbal contract. To have dropped out at one year's notice, without the agreement of the English Riviera Centre might have been very damaging to the whole Torquay economy for the year. The venue might have stood vacant for the whole fortnight. If you look at my previous post, I persuaded the Twickenham venue to cancel in 1981 for 1982.

If that seems far-fetched, in 1982 the Torquay Tourist Board told me the hotel occupancy went from 80-95% for the period of the congress. That 15% must have been virtually all profit. At that time the British Championships were a substantially smaller event than today and probably Torquay tourism was more robust.

To have postponed Torquay to another year, perhaps 2015, would only have postponed the commitment.

William Metcalfe
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by William Metcalfe » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:49 am

Paul if you are so concerned why dont you offer to take over as manager of the next British champs
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Paul Cooksey

Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:50 am

William Metcalfe wrote:Paul if you are so concerned why dont you offer to take over as manager of the next British champs
Playing the man not the ball again I think.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:55 am

!!!!
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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William Metcalfe
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by William Metcalfe » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:17 pm

People are very fast to snipe from the sidelines they are a lot slower to get of there backsides and get involved.When a prominent figure in Cleveland chess was being economical with the facts i got involved i took over a job nobody else was doing,then got myself elected,then got the evidence that got rid of the prominent figure.
That was much more satisfying than sniping from the sidelines Paul
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

David Lettington
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by David Lettington » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:38 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote: Unless Lara dissociates herself with your opinions, people are likely to assume you are speaking with at least her consent, if not on her behalf.
Only a moron would assume that.

Paul Cooksey

Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:42 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:People are very fast to snipe from the sidelines they are a lot slower to get of there backsides and get involved.When a prominent figure in Cleveland chess was being economical with the facts i got involved i took over a job nobody else was doing,then got myself elected,then got the evidence that got rid of the prominent figure.
That was much more satisfying than sniping from the sidelines Paul
Maybe I should let this go, rather than let it derail the chances of Alex replying to a substantive point I was trying to make. I'm not going to though, probably mostly because it is difficult to ignore an insult. But partly because it does raise issues I want to discuss, even if they are not the main point of this thread.

I say insult, because I think that was the intent. I looked up sniping in case I was being over sensitive, but the relevant definition is 3. To make malicious, underhand remarks or attacks. which, if anything, is worse than I thought. Get off you backside implies laziness. It hardly seems possible William thinks I am qualified to run the British. The whole intent seems mocking.

In so far as there is content beyond the insult, I think there is an implication that because I am only minimally involved in organising chess competitions, I have no right to criticise those that are. But apart from being a member of this forum, and a member of the ECF, I am also qualified to play in next years British. I think I can claim that I have a personal stake in the matter being discussed.

Perhaps there is also an implication I'm not being constructive. I suppose this goes to the existential question:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:We can discuss all we like here, but what effect will it have? I'm not entirely comfortable with the implicit assumptions in some of these threads that this forum can be a place where solutions are proposed, discussed and then presented as a fait accompli. Aren't people elected to the ECF Board and appointed to do this sort of thing?
I accept that this is just a forum, whose point is to allow people to discuss things. But I think there is reason to believe that what is discussed here is opinion forming in the ECF Board and Council. I'll admit I enjoy the discussion for its own sake, but I probably wouldn't bother if I knew no-one would read it.

So constructive. How? If William had used the word "moaning" instead of “sniping”, I'd still have been unhappy because I think criticism has a point. My overarching point in these related discussions is that the ECF is an under-performing organisation due to problems with its culture. I’m trying to persuade Alex that his actions are contributing to a negative culture.

I am also telling a wider audience that I think Alex is wrong about some things, in case I cannot persuade him. I suppose this might have made William think that I am making a personal attack on someone he thinks highly of, and therefore a personal attack on me is justified. Justin does seem to have this view, since he expressed shock when I used the phrase "playing the man not the ball”. Perhaps. To my mind my criticism of Alex is only related to things I think relevant to the subject we are discussing. I don’t think William’s comments about me were particularly relevant to the discussion.

Still I'm not so thin skinned that I feel the need to disengage from the discussion. Justin generally treats my opinions with a refreshing forthrightness. But I continue to discuss things with him because he does address the issues I am interested in. I don't think William has. All his posts in this thread have been either supporting people or criticising people, which is less interesting to me than discussion of the issues.

That said maybe William was trying to make the point, that even if Alex has faults, they are inconsequential when weighed against his volunteer work, and more people should do the same. You do hear this opinion a lot from organisers. More money and more volunteers, and it will all be fine. I think it is wrong though. If the culture of an organisation is wrong, you are throwing good money and good volunteers after bad. The ECF has a six figure income and hundreds of volunteers. Increasing either by 10% isn’t going to make a huge difference unless the organisation becomes more professional.

Arrogant as it may be to criticise a job someone else is doing, my professional opinions on change management and organisational design are more expensive than the ECF could afford. Everyone is free to ignore them, but I am secure enough that they have value anyway. I’m also secure enough in my value to society, not to feel the n eed to justify myself if someone criticises my character on the basis of my lack of participation in chess organisation. Besides, I’ve already spent ages on this post, when I have some work to do for a charity this evening...

Paul Cooksey

Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:46 pm

David Lettington wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote: Unless Lara dissociates herself with your opinions, people are likely to assume you are speaking with at least her consent, if not on her behalf.
Only a moron would assume that.
I could say that was insulting to Krishna, who seems to be assuming Alex is representing both himself and Lara when discussing possible mediation with CJ. But frankly, I suspect David (133) just wanted to imply he thinks I'm a moron.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Carl Hibbard » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:54 pm

I am not sure what is wrong with everybody on here recently but a lot of the posts are turning into either personal attacks or childish name calling

My patience with some of this and my usual attempt at light moderation is clearly not working so stand by your beds it's hassle time :roll:

I might be forced to just ban the odd person for a few days while they calm down unless a sense of normality resumes
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

David Lettington
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by David Lettington » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:02 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote: I could say that was insulting to Krishna, who seems to be assuming Alex is representing both himself and Lara when discussing possible mediation with CJ. But frankly, I suspect David (133) just wanted to imply he thinks I'm a moron.
Well, you're wrong, I didn't intend to imply that. I wasn't aware that Krishna had passed comment on it, as I didn't read the entire thread, it was merely a response to your comment. I'm not sure that I understand your need to put my grade in brackets. I may not be a very good chess player, but that is only one mark of intelligence. I'm pleased that you have a high grade, but that doesn't make you clever.

You seem to think that you have a good understanding of what other people think . Why don't you just let them speak for themselves?

I've no idea if you're a moron, I've never met you and it's not my position to judge, but there's no need to get your knickers in a twist just because someone disagrees with you.

Paul Cooksey

Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:14 pm

So Carl, what do you think?

If David did not use the word moron to criticise me, I am not sure why he did. I'm happy to respond to him, and to any further comment he wants to make. But I assume this is the kind of discussion you were hoping to avoid.

David Lettington
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Re: Role of the Manager of the British Championships

Post by David Lettington » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:So Carl, what do you think?

If David did not use the word moron to criticise me, I am not sure why he did.
To criticise anyone that would assume that one adult speaks on behalf of another, when the other adult is entirely capable of speaking for themselves.

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