ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:26 am

John Townsend wrote: I played some years at Kidlington but have recently not played there either, as it is my understanding that ECF membership is now required - perhaps only £12 in that case.
The 2013 Kidlington entry form has yet to be published. Congresses which aren't FIDE rated are allowed to permit non-ECF members to take part, the caveat being that they will be charged £ 6 by the ECF for each person that they allow to play. Presumably they take it into account when setting the entry fee, so they will offer a £ 6 discount to Gold and Silver members.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:13 pm

John Townsend wrote:Just for the record, Sean has made an incorrect assumption. I said "my local congress", meaning the Berks. and Bucks., which I had supported fairly regularly since about 1970, until I was prevented from playing when even the "Challengers'" section became FIDE-rated and ECF membership was needed. As I correctly said, that would be £27.
Apologies John, but I didn't make an assumption. You previously said
John Townsend wrote:...in my case, £12 would not entitle me to play in an appropriate section of my local congress, as I used to do - it would need to be £27.
so I did some research of the ECF grading database for the last 4 years and found that the only congress you had played was Kidlington. The fact that you need to be an ECF member to play in the FIDE rated sections at Berks & Bucks is not connected to the new Universal Membership scheme. That has been the case for some time now, and for a different reason.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:38 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:. That has been the case for some time now, and for a different reason.
What actually was the reason and why cannot "pay to play" be extended to FIDE rated events, even if you exempt non ENG players?

The originally stated reason, that it was a FIDE requirement, has now been demonstrated to be false. It wasn't even enough that you had to pay an annual sum to the ECF, you also had to sign a white form to become a Guarantor member, so Northern players who hadn't signed the form were also to be excluded, on paper anyway, from FIDE rated events.

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sebastian Stone » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:28 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
John Townsend wrote:Fair enough. But inflation increments are not the only form of increase the ECF is capable of introducing. Last year's increase, described as "a fundamental change to the ECF funding model", clocked in at 244.8%.
As I said, the increase in game fee was £1.42 per result. That increase must be viewed though in the context of the overall impact of universal membership. Membership rates have remained static or, in many cases, reduced by comparison. For example, it is now possible to play an unlimited number of internal club, league and county matches for just £12 per year. I think that's a bargain.
Yes, a bargain. For example, my club has gone from paying £3 in grading fees per player to absolutely nothing! These savings were duly passed on to the membership in the form of a £3 discount in membership fees.
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Sebastian Stone wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
John Townsend wrote:Fair enough. But inflation increments are not the only form of increase the ECF is capable of introducing. Last year's increase, described as "a fundamental change to the ECF funding model", clocked in at 244.8%.
As I said, the increase in game fee was £1.42 per result. That increase must be viewed though in the context of the overall impact of universal membership. Membership rates have remained static or, in many cases, reduced by comparison. For example, it is now possible to play an unlimited number of internal club, league and county matches for just £12 per year. I think that's a bargain.
Yes, a bargain. For example, my club has gone from paying £3 in grading fees per player to absolutely nothing! These savings were duly passed on to the membership in the form of a £3 discount in membership fees.
That sounds like a club where the players are much less active than on average. Do you mind saying which club it is?

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sebastian Stone » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:39 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote: Yes, a bargain. For example, my club has gone from paying £3 in grading fees per player to absolutely nothing! These savings were duly passed on to the membership in the form of a £3 discount in membership fees.
That sounds like a club where the players are much less active than on average. Do you mind saying which club it is?
It's Sidmouth, we have an internal all play all competition (graded, last year 24 players took part in it), a knockout cup (also graded) and last year we had two teams playing in our local league.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:17 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:That sounds like a club where the players are much less active than on average. Do you mind saying which club it is?
Internal events were charged at 20p per game, 10p if rapid-play. You don't save an awful lot by reducing the fees to zero. The membership advocates were told that paying £ 12 to save £ 3 wasn't the most attractive of propositions. The comments were ignored or rubbished. Even the club of one of the most fervent advocates of per head costing has only been able to reduce its subs by £ 5 for members paying £ 12 to become Bronze members.

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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:15 am

Sebastian Stone wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote: Yes, a bargain. For example, my club has gone from paying £3 in grading fees per player to absolutely nothing! These savings were duly passed on to the membership in the form of a £3 discount in membership fees.
That sounds like a club where the players are much less active than on average. Do you mind saying which club it is?
It's Sidmouth, we have an internal all play all competition (graded, last year 24 players took part in it), a knockout cup (also graded) and last year we had two teams playing in our local league.
Thanks. The ECF grading database has 25 graded players listed for Sidmouth, with all bar 3 having it listed as their primary club. The db says they played 561 games between them (an average of 23.64 games each).

Looks like even more of a bargain to me!

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sebastian Stone » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:48 am

I'm unsure how having to pay £9 extra (more if they wish to play in congresses) can be considered a 'bargain'.

Good news though, I'm pleased to announce the vast majority of those who are playing this year (at my club) will be bronze members or higher.

So, MO wins, I guess. :|
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:54 am

Sebastian Stone wrote:I'm unsure how having to pay £9 extra (more if they wish to play in congresses) can be considered a 'bargain'.
Because 23.64 games would have cost £17.73 under game fee this year (assuming game fee would have increased to 75p to cover the loss of the DCMS grant). Under Universal Membership it's £12 for bronze and £18 for silver (if done online) and, in addition, you can play as many additional graded games as you like for free. Bargain!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:58 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Sebastian Stone wrote:I'm unsure how having to pay £9 extra (more if they wish to play in congresses) can be considered a 'bargain'.
Because 23.64 games would have cost £17.73 under game fee this year (assuming game fee would have increased to 75p to cover the loss of the DCMS grant). Under Universal Membership it's £12 for bronze and £18 for silver (if done online) and, in addition, you can play as many additional graded games as you like for free. Bargain!
If that were really true, the Sidmouth club would be celebrating a net cut in their costs and the ECF would be worrying about lost income.

Look a bit closer, there are players whose only graded games are the twenty or so in the internal Sidmouth competition. Assuming the discounts for club internal had survived, it would not have been 75p Game Fee but 25p. Therefore 20 internal games would have cost the club £ 5. They now get them for nothing, but it will cost each individual an additional £ 12 to join the ECF.

Do Sidmouth even play in the Devon league?

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Sebastian Stone » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:57 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Do Sidmouth even play in the Devon league?
No, just the Exeter and District league.
Paul Cooksey wrote:Surely they aren't running a 23 round internal championship? 24 players in a Swiss maybe, but how would 23 rounds get played? Most clubs I've been a member of have struggled with 6.
It is an all play all division and I don't think anyone completed all their games. Most manage at least 15 though.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF membership & clubs' internal games.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:25 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Surely they aren't running a 23 round internal championship? 24 players in a Swiss maybe, but how would 23 rounds get played? Most clubs I've been a member of have struggled with 6.
With the new grading enhancements, you can look up where people play. Checking a handful of Sidmouth "grade type B" players, I noted that some of the lower graded had played 20 games in a season, all classified as Sidmouth internal.

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