National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:30 am

John Upham wrote:What was the last year when the NCC had any substantial prestige and was worth competing for?
It used to be the qualifier for the European Club Championship until this was awarded to the 4NCL. I'm not sure what year this was, mid to late Nineties probably. The National Club with a reasonable entry and 4NCL did overlap for a while and some 4NCL managers may have been tempted to use their 4NCL squad in the National Club. The BCF soon put a stop to that of course.

John Philpott

Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by John Philpott » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:37 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sorry to revive this one but I've had a brainwave.
There is understandable scepticism on this thread about the value of the National Club Championship in its current form. If anybody not only has a brainwave as to how the competition might be better organised but is also prepared to devote the time to implementing his or her ideas, now is the time to come forward. Julie Johnson is standing down as National Club Controller after the conclusion of the 2012/13 competition on Sunday, and the ECF therefore has another upcoming vacancy. Any applicant for the position need not feel obliged to perpetuate the current structure, but could specify the basis on which he or she would intend to run the competition. All you need to do is convince the Director of Home Chess of the viability of your ideas. :D

Angus French
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Angus French » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:22 am

John Philpott wrote:All you need to do is convince the Director of Home Chess of the viability of your ideas. :D
Given that the competition is ECF-organised, does that mean that all participants must be ECF members?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:28 am

Angus French wrote: Given that the competition is ECF-organised, does that mean that all participants must be ECF members?
This year they didn't put it in the rules. I believe the Home Director wishes to extend his powers of competition altering defaults to this event, if anyone organises it and if any clubs enter. The rules talk of bona fide club members which is usually interpreted to mean playing for the club in the local leagues. The bigger problem, as it was in the Counties qf and sf, is likely to be defaults because of non-renewal rather than non-membership.

benedgell
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by benedgell » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:32 pm

John Philpott wrote:Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sorry to revive this one but I've had a brainwave.
There is understandable scepticism on this thread about the value of the National Club Championship in its current form. If anybody not only has a brainwave as to how the competition might be better organised but is also prepared to devote the time to implementing his or her ideas, now is the time to come forward. Julie Johnson is standing down as National Club Controller after the conclusion of the 2012/13 competition on Sunday, and the ECF therefore has another upcoming vacancy. Any applicant for the position need not feel obliged to perpetuate the current structure, but could specify the basis on which he or she would intend to run the competition. All you need to do is convince the Director of Home Chess of the viability of your ideas. :D
Will the Club Championship take place if no-one volunteers to be Controller for next season? On a similar note (I know its off- topic) has anyone volunteered to run the National Stages of the county event next season?

For what its worth I think the Club Championship should be run like an open BUCA teams' event:
http://www.buca.org.uk/buca-championship

At the very least the ECF should either gamble on an entirely new way of running it, or scrap the Club Championships entirely. Its pretty much been superseded by the 4NCL in its present form.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:36 pm

benedgell wrote:Will the Club Championship take place if no-one volunteers to be Controller for next season?
No, it won't.
benedgell wrote:On a similar note (I know its off- topic) has anyone volunteered to run the National Stages of the county event next season?
Yes. Two people have applied.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:43 pm

benedgell wrote:At the very least the ECF should either gamble on an entirely new way of running it, or scrap the Club Championships entirely. Its pretty much been superseded by the 4NCL in its present form.
I've investigated the possibility of turning it into an Internet-based competition. All the players from a team would have to go to a venue. Clubs would have to pay for neutral arbiters at their venues to ensure there was no cheating. A similar competition exists in the United States. You wouldn't have to be at a chess club; you could all go around your arbiter's house armed with a laptop, or something.

Phil Ehr was investigating this too for the National Schools as an option for schools that have to travel long distances. Remember telephone matches in the County Championship? I took that out of the rules this season. I might put Internet matches in the rules as an option for distant counties as a sort of 21st century telephone match.

It's an idea that's being worked on, but probably not in time for the 2013/4 season.

This is one issue with advertising for the vacancy. It's not entirely clear what type of tournament it'll be just yet.

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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by John Upham » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:35 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: Phil Ehr was investigating this too for the National Schools as an option for schools that have to travel long distances.
Has anyone in this place had experience of using http://schoolchess.net/en ?

I've registered and found only one post on their forum which was submitted by me today.

The domain has been registered by

Diocese of Norwich
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Email Address: spamisbadbadbad@googlemail.com
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Paul Buswell
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Paul Buswell » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:04 pm

Can I suggest that as a start the ECF advertise the competition widely? Does bread & butter admin' stuff like that? Which afaik didn't happen this season and perhaps not adequately in recent seasons

PB

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:48 pm

I still think devolving responsibility for the early stages to the County Associations is the best way forward. After all it works for the County Championships. There is of course the problem of the NCCU running a rival competition but the ECF may just have to swallow this and negotiate a way forward. The argument that people should play in ECF organised events because they ought to is not a compelling one.

I'd like to add here that I do not think compulsory ECF membership for all players is good for the competition. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the ECF to bill clubs £2 for every non ECF member or organise a rebate for ECF members.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:50 pm

benedgell wrote: Its pretty much been superseded by the 4NCL in its present form.
At the top levels yes, the 4NCL doesn't cater for minor strength teams (yet).
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Phil Neatherway
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Phil Neatherway » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:43 am

I think the 4NCL does cater for weaker teams. Just look at the line-ups at the bottom end of Division 3.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:42 am

Certainly the top 6 from Harrogate's Yorkshire league team would do fine in the 4NCL North, but then they're already doing well enough in the Yorkshire league :)

With the level of interest that Andrew is talking about - with a ~126 on board 2 - then, no, the 4NCL doesn't go down that low. To be honest I'm not sure what competition would as even a 'pure' club championship would tend to be quite a lot stronger than that.

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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:14 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:To be honest I'm not sure what competition would as even a 'pure' club championship would tend to be quite a lot stronger than that.
The National Club championship does offer graded competitions and as thus caters for lower grade teams. What it doesn't have is a proper fixture structure which, combined with the travelling distances involved, make entering more trouble than it's worth. No wonder most people prefer the 4NCL which has theatre, a sense of occasion and a general buzz.

From a personal point of view I work most weekends which means I can't commit to a full weekend, plus there's only so many favours I can call in when I do need a Saturday off. I can't be the only one in this situation and that's the area of opportunity the National Club Championship could cater for.
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Neville Belinfante
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Neville Belinfante » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:56 pm

A discussion at a club AGM about the ECF National Club Championships a few years ago went as follows

Me - The ECF Club Championships has been reduced to four boards, so the whole team can fit in one car.
Another Club Member - Why dont they reduce it to two boards? That way they can have the whole match in one car.

Regards

Neville Belinfante

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