National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Angus French
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Angus French » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:27 pm

A few comments, for what they are worth:

1. I've read the draft rules. I think they would benefit from a meaningful review (rather than just corrections to the issues identified on this thread). Clarifications would help in some places and, in others, I think wordings could be tightened. A £50 fee for an appeal against a player-registration decision seems...daft (and I prefer appeals to be made to a committee rather than an individual). This isn't to say there aren't things I like (and haven't seen before)!
2. In general, I think the new format is appealing.
3. I wonder how it will be possible to find a venue while not, I assume, knowing what the demand for the competition will be.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:44 pm

Angus French wrote: 3. I wonder how it will be possible to find a venue while not, I assume, knowing what the demand for the competition will be.
I noted a hotel sharing novelty between e2e4 and BUCA. The West Bromwich e2e4 event next month takes place in a now renamed hotel formerly used by the 4NCL. The BUCA Championships take place at the same place on the same weekend.

You could do similar for an ECF National Club. There again, players might prefer 90 30 to 80 10 for playing at weekends.

Ian Thompson
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:I guess mistakes are a function of actually trying to do something, ...
That's a fair point. My post about "gems" was over the top and I apologise.
Accepted. I'll get back to making the necessary amendments to them.
I suggest you review Rule A2 (4 round swiss if at least 6 entries) and Rule C5 (triangular matches if there are an odd number of entries, with each team playing in one a maximum of once). How will you achieve both of these with 7, 9 or 11 entries?

David Sedgwick
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:29 pm

[quote="Ian Thompson"I suggest you review Rule A2 (4 round swiss if at least 6 entries) and Rule C5 (triangular matches if there are an odd number of entries, with each team playing in one a maximum of once). How will you achieve both of these with 7, 9 or 11 entries?[/quote]
A triangular match lasts two rounds, so I don't see a problem with 9 or 11 teams.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:55 pm

Did anyone offer an answer to the original question - "National Club Championship - what is the point?" I was pleased to see it was Alex who posed the question but have the impression that he is proceeding without any answer.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:59 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Did anyone offer an answer to the original question - "National Club Championship - what is the point?" I was pleased to see it was Alex who posed the question but have the impression that he is proceeding without any answer.
I'm not sure I did, for a few reasons:
(1) I wouldn't have misspelt "Championship" in the subject, would I? :wink:
(2) I'm quoting a post that no longer appears to exist.
(3) I suspect other accounts have been closed and so posts have disappeared.

This notwithstanding, I probably am indeed proceeding without any answer. I suppose I came to the conclusion that if we keep doing the National Club the same way every year, we're going to get the same result: Fewer teams entering every year. So why not try something different?

David Robertson
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by David Robertson » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:02 pm

I'll give Alex one kind of answer.

He's trying to breathe life into a dead sheep by blowing through a straw up its ar$e.

It won't work.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 am

David Robertson wrote: He's trying to breathe life into a dead sheep by blowing through a straw up its ar$e.
That may well be true, but non-disclosure of the where and when is unlikely to be helpful. For that matter banning the obvious constituency of 4NCL squads is unlikely to help, in the first year at least.

If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there's another couple of events that have a shadowy existence. I suppose it's flattering that a national organisation such as e2e4 seems to have taken up residence in the counties of Bucks and Berks, but confirmation of events would be helpful to those trying to map out how much chess to play and where to play it.

PeterFarr
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by PeterFarr » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:27 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Robertson wrote: He's trying to breathe life into a dead sheep by blowing through a straw up its ar$e.
That may well be true, but non-disclosure of the where and when is unlikely to be helpful. For that matter banning the obvious constituency of 4NCL squads is unlikely to help, in the first year at least.

If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there's another couple of events that have a shadowy existence. I suppose it's flattering that a national organisation such as e2e4 seems to have taken up residence in the counties of Bucks and Berks, but confirmation of events would be helpful to those trying to map out how much chess to play and where to play it.
The draft eligibility rules don't actually stop quite a few 4NCL teams from entering, as many are based around clubs that play in other leagues, and would still qualify in some guise or other. I imagine very few individual players would be effectively prevented from playing. Presumably one of the *points* of the national clubs is to be for actual clubs rather than manufactured teams. If the competition is not distinctive in some way, then you may as well just forget it and just say that 4NCL is the de facto national team / club competition.

It's a difficult area, admittedly; I think everybody understands what is meant by being a real member of a real club, but the drafting of eligibility rules to capture the right spirit can lead to grey areas and / or an unpleasant sense of excluding people for being unacceptably strong or too foreign or not having the right tie etc.

Of course the whole thing might be an exercise in trying to revive a corpse, but I think its worth a shot and applaud Alex for making the attempt. At any rate, things can hardly get much worse, so trying anything new has got to be better than the status quo.

I do think getting publicity to clubs is important though. I don't suppose the ECF has a complete database of clubs + contact e:Mail addresses for communication purposes? Probably not an easy thing to keep up to date?

I don't really understand so much criticism of lack of dates / venues for this and for e2e4. And what is meant by "shadowy existence"? Is there some kind of Masonic conspiracy to infiltrate chess tournaments into the South Midlands? :shock:

I'm not an expert, but I guess it takes time for things to be organized. You can either wait until all the 'i's are dotted or you can announce an intention so that people know something is on the way. But probably not everything can happen magically at once, particularly with new events, and where accommodation as well as playing venue needs to be factored in. It's not as though organizers are deliberately withholding information. Or are they...?

LawrenceCooper
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:14 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Robertson wrote: He's trying to breathe life into a dead sheep by blowing through a straw up its ar$e.
That may well be true, but non-disclosure of the where and when is unlikely to be helpful. For that matter banning the obvious constituency of 4NCL squads is unlikely to help, in the first year at least.

If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there's another couple of events that have a shadowy existence. I suppose it's flattering that a national organisation such as e2e4 seems to have taken up residence in the counties of Bucks and Berks, but confirmation of events would be helpful to those trying to map out how much chess to play and where to play it.
http://www.e2e4.org.uk/calendar/index.htm

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:15 am

PeterFarr wrote: I don't really understand so much criticism of lack of dates / venues for this and for e2e4. And what is meant by "shadowy existence"?
If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there is mention of an English Rapid-play Championship and an English Seniors Championship. Both would take place before the end of April and are within forty minutes drive. Do I keep these weekends free or regard the events as mythical as they appear nowhere else? The English Seniors in particular is described as an undated possible event in a more general email by Stewart Reuben about Seniors chess.


If we know when and where for the National Club, clubs can discuss whether they want to attempt to organise teams.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:44 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there's another couple of events that have a shadowy existence.
WTF?
Roger de Coverly wrote:If you go to the e2e4 calendar, there is mention of an English Rapid-play Championship and an English Seniors Championship. Both would take place before the end of April and are within forty minutes drive. Do I keep these weekends free or regard the events as mythical as they appear nowhere else?
Treat them as mythical. We like to put fictitious events into the calendar. It adds to the fun. :roll:

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: National Club Chamionship - what is the point?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:23 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:Did anyone offer an answer to the original question - "National Club Championship - what is the point?" I was pleased to see it was Alex who posed the question but have the impression that he is proceeding without any answer.
I'm not sure I did, for a few reasons:
I believe this thread was started by Paul Cooksey who appears to have withdrawn from this forum along with his posting history as a spin off from another thread.

So what would be the point? I can actually think of two;
a) the 4NCL does have one inevitable drawback in that you have to commit to play five weekends during the season. With this event you would only need to play one.
b) last year the interest in entering a team at Harrogate came from the lower echelons of the club - graded 130 I was board 2. Obviously such a team wouldn't stand a chance in the 4NCL (at least not at this stage).

I personally think this new format is much better - you have a fixed date and it's all over in a weekend. No more trying to arrange mutually convenient dates, long journeys for the sake of a single game and the captain of Lands End having to find a halfway house venue when they're drawn against John o Groats.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:34 am

I agree with Andrew - this format has a much better chance of taking off, and we should support the Director's enterprise and the effort he has put into trying to revitalise this event. I know that when this proposal was discussed at my club, we were thinking about entering a team, and this despite entering the NCC in a previous year and deciding that it wasn't for us.
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Re: National Club Championship - what is the point?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:59 am

Adam Raoof wrote:I agree with Andrew - this format has a much better chance of taking off, and we should support the Director's enterprise and the effort he has put into trying to revitalise this event. I know that when this proposal was discussed at my club, we were thinking about entering a team, and this despite entering the NCC in a previous year and deciding that it wasn't for us.
Agreed. My club, which has not entered the NCC in my time is planning to enter one or maybe two teams in this new format.

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