ECF Game Fee Billing

[Carl Hibbard]

@Carl - I'm sorry if my constantly correcting Roger's inaccuracies is niggling but the alternative is to let him perpertuate his nonsense until they become reality.

You could always ban him.

It sometimes goes beyond that when you pair snipe at each other like a couple of little boys, keeping to the point might help?

[Roger de Coverly]

A suspicion is not a fact, especially when that suspicion is wrong.

If County and League Treasurers decline to settle with the ECF in the absence of an invoice or even an indication of how much the ECF thinks they owe, the ECF will have to have an operational system in September in order to collect any money.

The timings of the cash flows are completely different from the way they used to be. Under a system where the organiser makes the same payment to the ECF regardless of who plays, the December estimate can be very close to the final value. So when the July indication from the grading files was prepared, the extra cost or rebate could be trivial. If you have a scheme where the organiser doesn't pay anything provided all players are members, you can only offer a nominal amount in December because you don't know who is going to play in the matches during the rest of the season and whether they all become members. It follows that the July or September settlements are going to be where the "proper" numbers have to be established.

[Greg Breed]

To be fair to Roger he has a point.
A few seasons back I was league controller and grader for my local league. It was the first time I had ever done it so I was pretty green. When the league treasurer asked me how much do we owe the ECF for the coming season I said, "I don't know. How was it done previously?"
He told me.
We worked out the total number of half games expected for the coming season and then deducted any non-played games (e.g. defaults) from the previous season. I gave that number to the treasurer, he worked out the money side and that was it.

[Greg Breed]

That said, once the membership scheme settles down and beds in, I am sure it will mean less hassle overall.

[Roger de Coverly]

We worked out the total number of half games expected for the coming season and then deducted any non-played games (e.g. defaults) from the previous season. I gave that number to the treasurer, he worked out the money side and that was it.

This was the practice familiar to many leagues. In terms of fund raising to meet this expense, a normal approach was to charge an entry fee to clubs and teams sufficient to cover this and other local expenses. If there was a profit or loss, it didn't matter provided you had enough reserves and you just carried it forward to the next season.

If you try to exactly match the Game Fee to clubs and players within clubs, you give yourself an awful lot more work unless you have the IT skills to set up a reliable and easy to use system.

[Greg Breed]

If you try to exactly match the Game Fee to clubs and players within clubs, you give yourself an awful lot more work unless you have the IT skills to set up a reliable and easy to use system.

An idea for a possible membership benefit? ECF to provide the system for its members to use...

[Ian Thompson]

If you try to exactly match the Game Fee to clubs and players within clubs, you give yourself an awful lot more work unless you have the IT skills to set up a reliable and easy to use system.

It took me less than half an hour to calculate a maximum liability for the Surrey Border League and provide this level of detail to member clubs. All I needed was the file submitted for grading (for a list of players) and the current ECF membership list. The uncertainty is how many players had old scheme memberships that expired mid-season and whether any non-member will join before the end of August.

[David Clayton]

If you try to exactly match the Game Fee to clubs and players within clubs, you give yourself an awful lot more work unless you have the IT skills to set up a reliable and easy to use system.

An idea for a possible membership benefit? ECF to provide the system for its members to use...

Just where is the problem guys? Get some league software that is already out there that does it for you (plus a lot more things as well), and monitor the automatic reports regularly so you always know where you are. Simple.

David

[Robin Williams]

OK - so if I understand this correctly, at the end of August we will be sent a game fee invoice from the ECF, but only if the amount is deemed to be material after subtracting the advance payment.

The problem here is that leagues will still need an account statement so they can invoice their affiliated clubs accurately.

[Roger de Coverly]

OK - so if I understand this correctly, at the end of August we will be sent a game fee invoice from the ECF, but only if the amount is deemed to be material after subtracting the advance payment.

I'm not sure whether that's established or not. Leagues can calculate a provisional liability, but it can still change up to 31st August if they take steps to restrict their liability to £ 12 per player. If a league doesn't know what the ECF think is the liability, they are just guessing. If the League didn't send an advance payment or estimated it at nil in the absence of any demand from the ECF to the contrary, that leaves the issue back with the ECF.

The problem here is that leagues will still need an account statement so they can invoice their affiliated clubs accurately.

In its way, the calculation and invoicing process is the same as it was in 2012 for areas running MOs and adjacent areas. That doesn't mean to say the ECF have anything that itemises by player or club as they didn't used to be able to supply that. When the rate per game was no more than 60p, perhaps Treasurers didn't bother checking. At more than three times that, they probably will.

[Robin Williams]

In its way, the calculation and invoicing process is the same as it was in 2012 for areas running MOs and adjacent areas. That doesn't mean to say the ECF have anything that itemises by player or club as they didn't used to be able to supply that. When the rate per game was no more than 60p, perhaps Treasurers didn't bother checking. At more than three times that, they probably will.

Under the old system an itemised bill wasn't necessary, because the game fee costs would be included in team entry fees. In contrast the current system does require this detail because these costs now need to recouped retroactively from clubs.

[Kevin Thurlow]

I received an interesting communication from ECF over the weekend. One was an Invoice for "Cotswold Congress pay to play fee". This went straight into the cylindrical filing cabinet as I have nothing to do with the Cotswold Congress! It occurred to me later that I think Kevin Markey is involved in that event...

There was a similar demand for money (£120) for the Combined Services Chess Association Tournament. I was at least arbiter at that event, but I was slightly puzzled as CSCA had made it a condition of entry that players were ECF members (or that CSCA would get membership on their behalf). Later, I realised that ECF probably expected silver membership for the event. But the CSCA championship, although it is a weekend Swiss, is an internal club championship, restricted to CSCA members, and has been recognised as such by BCF then ECF for many years. This of course does not stop them sending inflated Game Fee demands (usually bearing no resemblance to the number of games played) virtually every year. Surely, somebody keeps records?

My mood was not enhanced as DVLA wrote trying to fine me for having an uninsured car, (a completely false accusation) so I now have to write to them demanding compensation and threatening to report them to the police for fraud.

[Gary Cook]

On 1 September will the 12-13 membership details still be held on the membership list? Reason for asking is that at the moment I know which players in my league are not yet members but they have until 31 Aug to join.

For that reason I won't be billing the clubs until September and I hope that the ECF won't be billing me until the same date

[Sean Hewitt]

There was a similar demand for money (£120) for the Combined Services Chess Association Tournament. I was at least arbiter at that event,

Kevin - The grading file lists you as the treasurer for the event. That is why you received the invoice.

But the CSCA championship, although it is a weekend Swiss, is an internal club championship, restricted to CSCA members, and has been recognised as such by BCF then ECF for many years.

Nothing in the grading file submission identifies this event as an internal club championship. The question as to what constitutes an internal club event is an interesting one!

I was slightly puzzled as CSCA had made it a condition of entry that players were ECF members (or that CSCA would get membership on their behalf). Later, I realised that ECF probably expected silver membership for the event.

Not only was the system looking for silver membership as the event is identified as a congress, it was looking for membership at the time of the event. It appears that all the non-members joined after the event had taken place.

[Roger de Coverly]

The question as to what constitutes an internal club event is an interesting one!

An interesting question and one that the ECF answered when Ernie Lazenby raised it. If it had been treated as an internal club event to 2011-12, it would have got the club championship Game Fee rate at one-third the normal rate. Against which it would not have got any exemptions for existing members.

As to the arbitrage as to whether it should be treated as a Congress or a club tournament, if a Congress then non-members, including Scots and Welsh are free to play at an extra cost of £ 6 a head, but those not already Congress players have also to pay this £ 6. If everyone is required to be a member, then that's £ 12 or £ 13 per head for all non-league players, including Scots and Welsh, but nothing extra for league players. It's the same issue as for BUCA where their charging structure makes it relatively more expensive for Scottish based players to take part.