National Chess Library closure

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mike Truran
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Mike Truran » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:25 am

Angus

Not quite. In 2015 the Board recommended storage, and that recommendation was accepted. This time the Board is recommending relocation, for the reasons set out in the accompanying papers.

Mike

Angus French
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:32 am

Mike Truran wrote:Angus

Not quite. In 2015 the Board recommended storage, and that recommendation was accepted. This time the Board is recommending relocation, for the reasons set out in the accompanying papers.

Mike
Well that's true but two options were given and Option A was to relocate the Office from ground floor to the first floor - the exact same thing that's being proposed now.
C22.9-National-Chess-Library.pdf wrote:Plan A -- Relocate to the Office in Battle. Re-negotiate the lease to move the office from the ground floor to the first floor in its current building. Strengthen the building’s beams to handle the load of the library. Purchase and install shelving. Move the library. Recruit volunteers or a paid librarian to maintain the library, selling duplicates per a detailed policy to be determined. Establish a registered charity to raise funds to maintain the National Chess Library, co-opting some ECF directors as trustees.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:35 am

From the documents:

"The problem of the library will be solved whilst we remain at Battle at a modest extra cost; the majority of the material will be made available for public display, and there will be ample storage facilities if required for duplicate material and archives in the two lofts to which we will have access. [...] A separate room will be made available for activities such as meetings and library research visits (next to impossible with the present facilities)."

This all sounds good to me. I hope Council in general (and the Finance Council in particular) approve, though it sounds like the Board will have entered into an agreement soon (17th March) to avoid losing out to someone else. Hopefully that will all go smoothly (and presumably that is what "circumstances beyond our control" means - being put under pressure in financial negotiations like this can be stressful!).

Angus French
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:41 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:This all sounds good to me. I hope Council in general (and the Finance Council in particular) approve, though it sounds like the Board will have entered into an agreement soon (17th March) to avoid losing out to someone else. Hopefully that will all go smoothly (and presumably that is what "circumstances beyond our control" means - being put under pressure in financial negotiations like this can be stressful!).
It's £8,000 a year for 10 years, Chris. For something which, when it was at Hasting University, was visited fewer than ten times a year. It's full of duplicates and volumes of little value (I say this having seen the bulk of the catalogue compiled a few years ago - see end of earlier post here).

Also, I question the "circumstances beyond our control" bit. This was an option available to the ECF two years ago.

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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Mike Truran » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 am

Angus

Again, not so. The annual cost after taking account of storage charges is £4,672.

But if you feel strongly about it, please cast your vote as a Council member as requested in the papers.

Mike

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:59 am

£8000 a year? You said "The current annual cost of storing the library is £3,526. The additional annual cost of a larger office at Hastings is £4,672. The proposal is to take out a 10-year lease." Is that not 4672-3526 = £1146 extra a year compared to current costs? Or is is £4,672 extra a year after taking into account the need to no longer pay for storage? And there are other benefits to a larger office at Hastings, so it is not so easy to calculate what proportion of the extra costs should be assigned to "the library" and what should be assigned to "the office".

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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:02 am

Mike Truran wrote:Angus

Again, not so. The annual cost after taking account of storage charges is £4,672.

But if you feel strongly about it, please cast your vote as a Council member as requested in the papers.

Mike
No, you're wrong Mike. You need to add the current cost of storage which is £3,526 to the additional cost of moving office location (the £4,672 you give).

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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:05 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:£8000 a year? You said "The current annual cost of storing the library is £3,526. The additional annual cost of a larger office at Hastings is £4,672. The proposal is to take out a 10-year lease." Is that not 4672-3526 = £1146 extra a year compared to current costs? Or is is £4,672 extra a year after taking into account the need to no longer pay for storage? And there are other benefits to a larger office at Hastings, so it is not so easy to calculate what proportion of the extra costs should be assigned to "the library" and what should be assigned to "the office".
Look at it this way: Currently office space costs £7,408 a year and the proposal is to move to an office which costs £15,606 a year.

Also, why is it that these other benefits are suddenly needed? Why hasn't this come up before - such as at last October's AGM when the Board asked for extra money for a bookkeeper? Can't the ECF Office continue to use the ground floor space?
Last edited by Angus French on Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:08 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Or is is £4,672 extra a year after taking into account the need to no longer pay for storage?
I think that's the net extra cost of the enlarged office. That looks a ,lower cost than quoted two years ago.

There are chickens and eggs here. Surely it must be possible to defray part of the cost of maintaining a library by selling parts off to collectors. You could even save space by dumping the worthless. But that's not going to happen until it's stored in a manner that facilitates cataloguing and review.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:09 am

Oh, I see now (I've found the document with the figures in it). Current office is £7408, Library storage is £3526, First Floor Office is £15,606. The £8000 figure from Angus is presumably the difference between current office and First Floor Office. So the additional cost per year is £4672.

Can the storage contract be broken at very short notice, or are there exit fees for that? Presumably not that much, even so.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:10 am

Angus French wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:Angus

Again, not so. The annual cost after taking account of storage charges is £4,672.

But if you feel strongly about it, please cast your vote as a Council member as requested in the papers.

Mike
No, you're wrong Mike. You need to add the current cost of storage which is £3,526 to the additional cost of moving office location (the £4,672 you give).
The proposal is to put the library in the new office and the loft space above. So the storage cost is no longer needed. And the current office costs are no longer needed. Those costs are being stopped and replaced by the First Floor Office. See the table in the 'Chess Library Relocation v3' document.

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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Mike Truran » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:12 am

Current office costs: £7,408
Current storage costs: £3,526
Total current costs: £10,934

First floor office costs: £15,606

Additional cost: £4,672.

Angus French
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:15 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Angus French wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:Angus

Again, not so. The annual cost after taking account of storage charges is £4,672.

But if you feel strongly about it, please cast your vote as a Council member as requested in the papers.

Mike
No, you're wrong Mike. You need to add the current cost of storage which is £3,526 to the additional cost of moving office location (the £4,672 you give).
The proposal is to put the library in the new office and the loft space above. So the storage cost is no longer needed.
I refer you to my earlier post comparing the costs of the two office rooms.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:16 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The proposal is to put the library in the new office and the loft space above. So the storage cost is no longer needed.
Another way of looking at it is that it's a proposal to increase the annual cost of the Library from around £ 3,500 to £8,000.

There's still a debate about what the future of the library should be. Can the ECF afford a permanent financial millstone of £ 8,000 a year without external funding of some sort?

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Re: National Chess Library closure

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:18 am

Mike Truran wrote:Current office costs: £7,408
Current storage costs: £3,526
Total current costs: £10,934

First floor office costs: £15,606

Additional cost: £4,672.
Additional cost from time before storage agreement entered into: £3,526 + £4,672 = £8,198

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