ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
NickFaulks
Posts: 4465
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:32 pm

"(2) Duplicate contract bridge as the activity at issue in the main proceedings is a ‘sport’ within the meaning of Article 132(1)(m) of the VAT Directive."

That does appear to the point.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4465
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:38 pm

The Advocate General thinks deeply

"Introduction

1. ‘Consider for example the proceedings that we call “games”. I mean board-games, card-games, ball-games, Olympic Games, and so on. What is common to them all?—Don’t say: “There must be something common, or they would not be called ‘games’ ”—but look and see whether there is anything common to all.—For if you look at them you will not see something that is common to all, but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that. To repeat: don’t think, but look!’. (2)"

from

"2 Wittgenstein, L., Philosophical Investigations, 1953, translated by Anscombe, G.E.M., Prentice Hall, 1999, point 66."

Nick Grey
Posts: 931
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:58 pm

All very well & thanks.

However, with Brexit there will be a complete taxation overhaul. VAT being a EU construction. Think carefully about gambling any more money!

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 5602
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:14 pm

Thanks very much Daniel. It's interesting to note that chess is cited several times in support of the view that bridge should be regarded as a sport.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

David Sedgwick
Posts: 3122
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:42 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The Contract Bridge world in the UK is organised on a far more centralised basis than the chess world, such that whilst entry fees to a typical UK event wouldn't attract VAT, those to a similar Bridge event probably would.
I think that that is a distinct overstatement.

Whilst it is true that EBU events constitute a higher proportion of English bridge than ECF events do of English chess, they are still very much a minority.

A lot of important Bridge events are organised by counties and, to a lesser extent, by clubs. In contrast to the situation in the Chess world, they have to obtain an EBU licence to enable them to take place. That doesn't bring them within the ambit of VAT, as the EBU is not the organising body.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17317
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:01 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: Whilst it is true that EBU events constitute a higher proportion of English bridge than ECF events do of English chess, they are still very much a minority.
The latest accounts
http://www.ebu.co.uk/documents/official ... h-2016.pdf
show an annual turnover after VAT of £ 1.7 million, being made up of
"membership services" 0.7
Organising bridge competitions and congresses 0.6
Supplies of goods & services 0.4

Nick Grey
Posts: 931
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:17 pm

More than 10% on the legal case. Similar to the rake on a poker tournament buy in.
The sooner we leave EU the better.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3748
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:02 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40293974

But it is only an opinion offered to the ECJ. This is NOT the EU.
When it happened for golf, they got 6 years back-VAT returned.
It would not necessarily no longer be levied for the whole of the ECF membership fee. VAT exemption is for entry fees to play sports. e.g. that part of the membership fee used to fund the office might not become exempt.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 2535
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:58 am

Clause 26 is interesting also.

"The fact that the EU legislature included ‘sport’ and ‘physical education’ in the same provision merely, in my view, indicates that the terms are related in some way or another, which does not necessarily have to be linked to the element of ‘physical’. It may just as well have been the ‘education’ aspect of ‘physical education’, or any elements common to both concepts, such as health benefits, sense of community, organisational matters, or to ensure that activities the physical element of which is doubtful, but which are widely regarded as ‘sport’ such as shooting, archery or chess are covered by the definition "

However, it is only an "opinion". And even if the EU agrees, how long will that take and will we still be members then? The "is a Jaffa cake a cake or a biscuit?" argument went on for many years, luckily I was only involved briefly.

I also recall being in Brussels being entertained by a delegate telling us that "Pringles" were not "crisps"...

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3748
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:55 pm

Kevin. I repeat. It is the ECJ, not the EU.

Richard Bates
Posts: 2740
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:09 pm

JustinHorton wrote:Thanks very much Daniel. It's interesting to note that chess is cited several times in support of the view that bridge should be regarded as a sport.
Well this is what's a bit confusing. In the context of the argument in appears that chess is already regarded as a sport - there is an article in The Times which refers to chess being a sport under Council of Europe definition whereas Bridge is not. The implication being that whatever VAT advantages accruing to Bridge if the court decision goes in their favour should already be applicable to chess.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17317
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:23 pm

Richard Bates wrote: The implication being that whatever VAT advantages accruing to Bridge if the court decision goes in their favour should already be applicable to chess.
That rather implies the Court may be ruling from a position of ignorance. Whilst Chess has the classification of a sport in several EU countries and presumably a VAT exemption or zero rate, that isn't the case in the UK. The ruling that VAT applies dates back to the 1970s or early 1980s, but doesn't apply much in practice because of the independent and local nature of the organisation of much of British chess.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:49 am

Just a reminder - any VAT exemption may be directly relevant only to the ECF and UKCC (apologies if I've omitted anyone!) but the status quo derives from the fact that HMRC relies on Sport England's definition of "sport" and it is the latter body, which doles out government funding, which is financially more relevant to UK chess. Put slightly differently, even if HMRC is persuaded to change its approach, it isn't obvious that Sport England has to follow suit.

Post Reply