ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Michael Flatt
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ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:31 pm

Stirrings from the other other channnel. Any views?

Reference: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 5&start=40

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:35 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Stirrings from the other other channnel. Any views?

Reference: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 5&start=40
As you have asked over there what is the cost?
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Angus French
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Angus French » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:50 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote:Stirrings from the other other channnel. Any views?

Reference: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 5&start=40
As you have asked over there what is the cost?
Yes, as Michael and Carl ask: what will this cost the ECF? I'd also be interested to know what arguments will be made for recognising chess and bridge as sports. For example, will the case rest on whether or not the brain is defined as a muscle (IIRC, this came up when leave for the judicial review was granted)? Also, what does it mean to be an "interested party" in a legal case?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:39 pm

Angus French wrote: For example, will the case rest on whether or not the brain is defined as a muscle
I would have thought the strongest case was that of European harmonisation, given that with the same Directives to work with, most of the other EU countries have classified chess as a sport, notwithstanding what it says in the Council of Europe definition about physical activity.

You could also try classifying chess as an electronic game, but chess already has unnecessary WADA baggage, which could get worse the more you press for sports recognition.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33882691

If Chess and Bridge are sports, then so too are electronic games, particularly so as it's suggested that competitors can feasibly use pharmaceuticals to gain an unfair advantage, which is an unlikely assertion for chess. The backup definition of a sport is that it isn't controlled by a single commercial interest. That would rule out most electronic games, for the time being, at least.

Mike Truran
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Mike Truran » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:49 pm

In terms of communication with and approval by Council, how is committing to expenditure like this different from the FIDE lawsuit episode?

(Have asked the question in the other place, but more likely to get a more productive debate here.)

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:24 pm

Ah, the joys of dealing with an organization for which the quantum of time is a half-year.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:26 pm

Mike Truran wrote: (Have asked the question in the other place, but more likely to get a more productive debate here.)
It isn't secret for one thing and thus unlikely to be "forgotten" about at Council meetings. If anyone wanted to challenge the decision, they could presumably call an EGM with enough support. EGMs aren't cost free either.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:34 pm

Mike Truran wrote:In terms of communication with and approval by Council, how is committing to expenditure like this different from the FIDE lawsuit episode?
Hopefully the expenditure will be transparent and capped. Personally, I would just let the bridge people get on with it.
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JustinHorton
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:56 pm

NickFaulks wrote:Personally, I would just let the bridge people get on with it.
I'm seeing Phil Ehr as Kirk and Fegan as Mr Spock. But what will they do with their communicators?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:31 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Stirrings from the other other channnel. Any views?

Reference: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 5&start=40
Very good decision from the ECF board.

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:38 am

Some background information is available in an EBU Press Release:
Extracts from EBU Press Release, 25th July 2015 wrote: ...
In the Upper Tribunal of the Tax and Chancery Chamber, on 14th July, Mrs Justice Asplin and Judge
Roger Berner decided that the case should be referred to the CJEU to ensure that the intention of
the EU article which gives tax exemption to sport is properly followed.
...
They noted that there was no legal precedent on which they could base a ruling, so therefore referred the
case to the CJEU for a judgement on the true meaning of the legislation.
...
In September a Judicial Review will take place of Sport England’s refusal to recognise bridge as a
sport, a case brought by the EBU as Sport England uses a similar narrow definition of ‘sport’ as those
activities requiring physical exertion, rather than the broader, more inclusive definition adopted by
other organisations.
...
CJEU= Court of Justice of the European Union

EBU Press Releases are available at:
http://www.ebu.co.uk/media

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:17 pm

You can read the brief decision granting leave for judicial review (includes some mentions of chess) here:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Adm ... /1347.html

Overall the message is, to my mind "it's arguable, and we know the IOC thought it should be considered a mindsport in 1999, but don't get your hopes up; that word "physical" is everywhere."

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:28 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Overall the message is, to my mind "it's arguable, and we know the IOC thought it should be considered a mindsport in 1999, but don't get your hopes up; that word "physical" is everywhere."
I see the 1937 Act from the era of Baldwin and Chamberlain is still being quoted. Tony Banks as Minister of Sport said that he was going to do something about that, but he got reshuffled, or was it dismissed?

The 1937 Act was discussed as being in the terms of a national emergency to encourage physical fitness. Presumably Bletchley Park was too secret or too far in the future to note that there was then also a need for Chess players, Bridge players and crossword solvers as well.

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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by David Robertson » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:11 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Overall the message is, to my mind "it's arguable, and we know the IOC thought it should be considered a mindsport in 1999, but don't get your hopes up; that word "physical" is everywhere."
That's my reading too, exactly. Mr Justice Mostyn probably makes up a four with his wife now and again, and doesn't want to deny the EBU its chance of a miracle. But that's what it will take for the EBU to succeed: making 7NT doubled vulnerable

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:56 pm

The news should really be on the ECF home page.
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Carl Hibbard