ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:08 am

NickFaulks wrote:First we need to track down the source.


The issue of whether Contract Bridge should be categorised as a sport for UK VAT appears to have been referred to the ECJ some months ago.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/econom ... ual-sport/

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:11 am

In any case, what may be 'sport' in a VAT definition may not be 'sport' in a charity definition. In law, words are frequently used in a way specifically defined within the law itself, or another law to which it refers, and it can be defined differently in different places. In a VAT dispute the VAT classification is likely to be the issue and that is probably a phrase, not a word.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:23 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:The issue of whether Contract Bridge should be categorised as a sport for UK VAT appears to have been referred to the ECJ some months ago.
A DT reporter says there has been a ruling and he has seen it. He won't say where it is.

Brian Towers
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Brian Towers » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:43 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:The issue of whether Contract Bridge should be categorised as a sport for UK VAT appears to have been referred to the ECJ some months ago.
A DT reporter says there has been a ruling and he has seen it. He won't say where it is.
Although he seems to have posted a scan of part of the ruling - https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/statu ... 0563659776
Attachments
ECJRulingExtract.jpg
ECJRulingExtract.jpg (79.84 KiB) Viewed 673 times
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:47 am

Brian Towers wrote:Although he seems to have posted a scan of part of the ruling
Yes, I saw that, but even if it is what it seems to be, wouldn't you like to see the interesting bit - the ruling itself?

Brian Towers
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Brian Towers » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:50 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Brian Towers wrote:Although he seems to have posted a scan of part of the ruling
Yes, I saw that, but even if it is what it seems to be, wouldn't you like to see the interesting bit - the ruling itself?
I'm guessing that with the digital EU it will be possible in a few days to do an online search for key phrases in the extract and find it.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:00 am

Brian Towers wrote:I'm guessing that with the digital EU it will be possible in a few days to do an online search for key phrases in the extract and find it.
That won't be necessary, it will be prominent on the ECJ site. In fact, if it really has been made official, I'm surprised it isn't there now.

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JustinHorton
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:03 am

"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:09 am

Hmm, Advocate-Generals only offer opinions to the ECJ. They don't make "rulings" at all (how astonishing that writers for the Telegraph might not know everything about how a European institution works!). Sometimes the judges do depart from the advice given to them, though admittedly I would not have thought that this was a likely occasion for them to do so.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:13 am

Poker and Backgammon are games of chance, but also require mental skill for success.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:48 am

JustinHorton wrote:Best of luck
Just go to the front page and search for sport.

However, Jonathan's point, which I had certainly missed, is a good one. If this is just an opinion, offered as the basis for a decision, then it won't be there.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:03 pm

I am not sure why ECF will want to gamble with our money. What benefits/costs will there be for those ECF represents?
Fishing requires mental skill for success. Poker and Backgammon have other costs relating to gambling.
As for elements relating to children there may be hidden additional costs.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:39 pm

The ECF and EBU have been considering, at various times, greater unity. I remember it came up 20 years ago. eg.
Why not combine sevices and work from the same location, pooling resources?
The matter of Mind Sports being recognised as sports in the UK has been around for about 35 years. In my opinion the only way forward is a European Court ruling. I don't mean EU Court Ruling. It is now more important for the ECF than heretofor because the VAT on membership and entry fees has risen. It will not enable us to get our grant restored..

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:41 pm

Nick Grey wrote: What benefits/costs will there be for those ECF represents?
Provided the current VAT threshold isn't drastically reduced, most chess organisations have a turnover well below that threshold. Two that don't are the ECF itself and the UK Chess Challenge. So, subject to being within whatever the rules for exemption became, these two organisations or those who finance them would benefit.

The Contract Bridge world in the UK is organised on a far more centralised basis than the chess world, such that whilst entry fees to a typical UK event wouldn't attract VAT, those to a similar Bridge event probably would.

Daniel Young
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Daniel Young » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:23 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
JustinHorton wrote:Best of luck
Just go to the front page and search for sport.

However, Jonathan's point, which I had certainly missed, is a good one. If this is just an opinion, offered as the basis for a decision, then it won't be there.
The opinion is now published.

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