ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Jonathan Bryant
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:27 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Perhaps going off at a tangent, the other thread points to an article at the Sport and Recreation website.
http://www.sportandrecreation.org.uk/bl ... tion-sport

It was also posted in paper form on one of the several noticeboards in Warwick, that had pairings, if you knew where to look, but not cross tables.

There were a number of points in the article which I would regard as disputed, just untrue or completely exaggerated.
Aside from anything else, the very kindest thing you could say about this statement
There is an emerging awareness of the effectiveness of chess in delaying the onset of Alzheimers

is that it is contentious. A more accurate assessment would be to say that the current state of the research evidence simply doesn’t justify such a claim.


(some background reading here
http://www.streathambrixtonchess.blogsp ... ework.html

in case of interest)

Mike Truran
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:33 pm

Had all 6 million competed in known organised competitions or had been registered as club members the figure would have had some meaning.
As it is, it can hardly be considered an accurate assessment of the number individuals playing competitive chess in the England.
Mache die Lüge groß, mache sie einfach, wiederhole sie immer wieder, und letztendlich wird man sie glauben. (Adolf Hitler)

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:47 pm

Regarding Alzheimer's, can Chess be regarded as a second language?

If so, the following article posted on the Alzheimer's Society's website may be of interest:

Speaking more than one language delays the onset of dementia: http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scrip ... ewsID=1851

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:57 pm

Michael

I'd highly recommend a read of Jonathan's blog postings on this

If you do find reference on the Alzheimer Society website to chess, then we would all love to read it, but until then, whatever Kasparov and others may say, there is no evidence
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:09 pm

Mick Norris wrote:Michael

I'd highly recommend a read of Jonathan's blog postings on this

If you do find reference on the Alzheimer Society website to chess, then we would all love to read it, but until then, whatever Kasparov and others may say, there is no evidence
I did get so far with Jonathon's blog, but didn't manage to pursue it past the YouGov poll. I'll have another go.

My interest was ignited from remembering some article's in the Press regarding the long term benefit of learning a second language. I was taking a wider perspective than Chess, since many of these mental processes seem to be related.

For instance, I believe that there has been shown to be a link between an aptitude for Chess, Music and Mathematics.

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:45 pm

Michael

The language bit is interesting, but it is important not to leap across to chess as similar when there is no evidence, yet some in chess are prepared to claim there is

In my experience, aptitude is for 2 but not 3 of the Chess, Music and Maths trio - at Bury chess club more than 20 years ago, we discussed spliting into a Maths v Music match
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Robertson
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by David Robertson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:19 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Aside from anything else, the very kindest thing you could say about this statement
There is an emerging awareness of the effectiveness of chess in delaying the onset of Alzheimers
is that it is contentious. A more accurate assessment would be to say that the current state of the research evidence simply doesn’t justify such a claim
One world-leading authority, an outstanding polymath, bon viveur, raconteur, autodidact neuroscientist, philosopher, sage and chessplayer, disagrees. Though I'd strongly advise carefully reading the comments of Prof Joe Verghese before reaching a view on whether our chess-playing authority is in fact talking through his bumhole

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:22 pm

Mick,

To be honest, I don't see much mileage in pursuing the chess/dementia debate (which is outside the main theme of his thread).

Dementia is a disease associated with aging and takes many forms. Given that it develops slowly and may not be accurately diagnosed until many years after its onset it is an inherently difficult topic to explore, especially given the narrow focus on Chess and the limited resources to undertake any research.

Saying that, I'm inclined to believe that playing chess and undertaking other mentally stimulating activities have some benefit as does regular physical exercise.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:50 pm

Mick Norris wrote:In my experience, aptitude is for 2 but not 3 of the Chess, Music and Maths trio - at Bury chess club more than 20 years ago, we discussed spliting into a Maths v Music match
*wanders in with IM title, grade 8 trumpet and BSc in maths, and sits down to play himself*

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:02 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:In my experience, aptitude is for 2 but not 3 of the Chess, Music and Maths trio - at Bury chess club more than 20 years ago, we discussed spliting into a Maths v Music match
*wanders in with IM title, grade 8 trumpet and BSc in maths, and sits down to play himself*
and very welcome you would have been then or would be now :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

LawrenceCooper
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:05 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:In my experience, aptitude is for 2 but not 3 of the Chess, Music and Maths trio - at Bury chess club more than 20 years ago, we discussed spliting into a Maths v Music match
*wanders in with IM title, grade 8 trumpet and BSc in maths, and sits down to play himself*
Another chess player who likes blowing his own trumpet :lol:

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:56 pm

An interesting discussion, which I’ve only just read. Presumably the other side, being that which wishes to deny bridge or chess sporting status, is influenced by the precedent it considers this would create. After all, if bridge then why not all other competitive card games starting with poker? And if chess then why not draughts, backgammon, etc?

Once those all had sporting status conferred, consideration might next have to be given to computer games such as Grand Theft Auto. Without wishing to sound like a latter-day Cassandra, I can visualize one argument being rehearsed in Court is that – whatever the merits of bridge and chess per se – the consequences of granting them sports status would be against the public interest due to the anticipated and predictable consequences.

In saying this, I’m not detracting from the arguments of those who have set out the case for chess to be treated as a sport – I’m simply looking at what the opposition has to offer.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:38 am

David Robertson wrote:One world-leading authority, an outstanding polymath, bon viveur, raconteur, autodidact neuroscientist, philosopher, sage and chessplayer, disagrees. Though I'd strongly advise carefully reading the comments of Prof Joe Verghese before reaching a view on whether our chess-playing authority is in fact talking through his bumhole
Thanks for that David. Of course interested parties could also simply read the actual journal article itself - it is freely available on line here - and count the number of times "chess" appears in it.(Spoiler: it’s zero).

More on what the Verghese journal article actually says here:-
http://www.streathambrixtonchess.blogsp ... -bark.html
http://www.streathambrixtonchess.blogsp ... susan.html


PS:
Mick Norris wrote:Michael
I'd highly recommend a read of Jonathan's blog postings on this
Thanks Mick that’s very kind.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:55 am

Michael Flatt wrote: Saying that, I'm inclined to believe that playing chess and undertaking other mentally stimulating activities have some benefit as does regular physical exercise.
The thing is Michael, there’s been a lot of research on this very point (see the link provided in my earlier post marked 'background reading' for a start). We can if we wish express our opinions as to what we do or don’t believe. Alternatively, we can make reference to the evidence. It’s up to us isn’t it?

For what it’s worth, my opinion is that it doesn’t really matter either way. That is ...
Joseph T. Coyle, M.D. wrote:... participation in cognitively demanding leisure activities in late life may provide protection against dementia,
...
Determining the relative contributions of genes that confer risk and environmental factors such as effortful mental activity to the pathogenesis of dementia remains an important but unrealized goal in research on dementia. In the meantime, seniors should be encouraged to read, play board games, and go ballroom dancing, because these activities, at the very least, enhance their quality of life, and they might just do more than that.
(for full reference see here: http://www.streathambrixtonchess.blogsp ... coyle.html)


It seems to me fairly obvious that we could - and should - add chess to that list. The ECF and the chess world as a whole should be encouraging older people to play chess and providing opportunities for them to do so precisely for the reasons given by Dr Coyle. Supporting scientific evidence is not necessary to justify such a programme.

UNLESS

you make a claim such as
There is an emerging awareness of the effectiveness of chess in delaying the onset of Alzheimers

If you do that you absolutely have to cite the evidence on which the claim is based on retract what you said. In any circumstances, but especially so if you are using that claim as part of your argument as to why chess should be considered to be a sport.

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF may join with English Bridge Union in Judicial Review

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:41 am

I think that it is a mistake to focus exclusively on studies that explicitly mention Chess.

One article I found provides some interesting background into research studies on aging. It makes several points; one of which is that simply retiring from work can be a significant factor in the decline of one's mental faculties.

Use it or Lose it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... or-lose-it

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