Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:41 am

The following is from here : http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/
ECF Competition Rules
This document will come into force from 1st September, 2016.
These Competition Rules will be used in conjunction with the FIDE Laws of Chess.
5a) The ECF encourages organisers to use incremental time-controls wherever possible.
This relates to tournaments but as I said at the beginning of this thread ..
In the past chess had adjournments/adjudications then congresses introduced quickplay finishes, the rest of the congresses switched fairly quickly but league chess took far longer to adapt and a few possibly still haven't. Congresses are now changing to increment time controls, this will spread quickly as it requires less arbiters/controllers so less expense and there is already a shortage of arbiters in some parts of the country.
It looks as though tournaments will be switching to increments a lot quicker than people thought, the days of the analogue clock could be numbered.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:28 pm

I think it will be some time before they disappear from club and even league chess.......
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:23 pm

Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:28 pm

I think it will be some time before they disappear from club and even league chess.......
For years the UK has had the highest cost for digital clocks within Europe, that's changed now :D

Analogues will of course not suddenly disappear from clubs (unless if part exchanged for digitals :wink: ) but they're unlikely to be replaced when broken or even used in competitive chess where digitals are available.

Mick Norris
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:37 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:Analogues will of course not suddenly disappear from clubs (unless if part exchanged for digitals :wink: )
In practical terms, how would clubs do that? Some clubs have a great variety of analogue clocks bought over many years in, er, varying levels of repair
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:25 pm

Mick Norris » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:37 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Analogues will of course not suddenly disappear from clubs (unless if part exchanged for digitals :wink: )

In practical terms, how would clubs do that? Some clubs have a great variety of analogue clocks bought over many years in, er, varying levels of repair
From the about us part of my company:
Using extensive purchasing power to secure the best possible prices and passing this on to our customers, we aim to increase the number of participants within the UK and improve the quality of equipment in use.
In the near future I'm aiming to be officially launching a part exchange scheme :idea: (via this site first of course), at the moment it's being tested and proven to work. This week 90 more analogues get part exchanged for digitals taking them out of tournament use.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:36 pm

How on earth do you get any value from the anologues though? These are often things that need non trivial repairs first and which quite honestly you'd not truly trust even after those :)

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:49 pm

MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:36 pm

How on earth do you get any value from the anologues though? These are often things that need non trivial repairs first and which quite honestly you'd not truly trust even after those :)
The value is in removing them from from serious chess, not everything a business does has to have an immediate benefit :shock:

For Chess in the UK to be taken seriously and stand any chance of serious sponsorship or large numbers taking it up otb, it needs a different image.
4NCL, E2E4, British Championships, Chess Scotland etc already have it, most clubs don't, using equipment decades old because it still goes (just about).

My idea may or may not work but at least I'll have tried to do something to improve the situation instead of just posting on a forum day after day while waiting for someone else to do something :roll:

J T Melsom
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:01 pm

I do think the flexibility of digital clocks is attractive, as is the clearer display. In a recent match I offered to provide the clocks - this was declined by the home captain exercising his right to do so as home captain. His board 3 brought along his own digital clock which both players were happy to use. On my board my opponent lifted or moved the analogue at least 3 times during the five minutes up to the intermediate time control to get a better sense of remaining time - arguably a digital would have negated this infringement of the rules. We subsequently played the same team at home using digital clocks and the night passed without any clock related incidents. I wonder if the team captain has actually asked his players for their views on the use of digitals.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:07 pm

I wonder if the team captain has actually asked his players for their views on the use of digitals.
Unlikely, probably as he doesn't know how to set them which is easy to learn.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:16 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote: Unlikely, probably as he doesn't know how to set them which is easy to learn.
If someone wants to follow League rules to the letter and add extra time on completion of a move count, what are the settings for this? Assume no increments.

If you are going to have widespread adoption of digital clocks with the design fault that they don't show their press counter, it is my view that you also have to abolish intermediate time controls. So for a three hour session, use 90 0, 80 10 or 75 15. 60 30 is plausible but at one level speeds up play and at the other, risks late finishes. It would also be bad for late arrivals, if you have a one hour default.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:13 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:The value is in removing them from from serious chess, not everything a business does has to have an immediate benefit :shock:
True - and very welcome if its being done as a charity case :) Could end up slightly frighteningly expensive if unlucky. There are a lot of old analogue clocks out there.

The venues are probably the bigger problem with club chess but that would take miracles.

Mick Norris
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:51 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:The venues are probably the bigger problem with club chess but that would take miracles.
Chorlton would be a good place to start with a venue change :wink:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Brian Towers
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: If someone wants to follow League rules to the letter and add extra time on completion of a move count, what are the settings for this? Assume no increments.
The way you would do this is the same way an arbiter would apply a 2 minute penalty.

For most of the modern clocks (the circa 2000 were different I think) you enter "modify" mode by pressing and holding the play/pause button for 2 or 3 seconds. When you do this the left hand side of the display changes to show flashing single digit hours followed by double digit minutes. If you want to change this (for instance you are adding 15 minutes and the speed merchant still has 50 minutes left so you need to set 1hr 5min) then use the "+" button to add, "-" button to subtract. You press the "next" button, which is the one with a tick mark on the blue-button DGT 2010, to move on to the tens of minutes digit which now flashes. Again use +, - to adjust and "next" to move on to single minutes digit. You press "next" repeatedly through tens of seconds and single seconds digits. This will take you to hours for the right hand player.

Repeat as per the left hand player.

Depending on which program you've used you may have additional fields to "next" through. On the blue button DGT 2010 using preset program 3 (manual set, single time period) there are no such additional fields.

It takes about ten times as long to type out as to actually perform. One tip: write down the "before" times before you start to avoid future arguments.
Roger de Coverly wrote:So for a three hour session, use 90 0, 80 10 or 75 15.
My slightly counter-intuitive suggestion would be 75 10. This means that any game lasting under 90 moves would complete in under 3 hours.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:56 am

MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:13 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
The value is in removing them from from serious chess, not everything a business does has to have an immediate benefit :shock:


True - and very welcome if its being done as a charity case :) Could end up slightly frighteningly expensive if unlucky. There are a lot of old analogue clocks out there.

The venues are probably the bigger problem with club chess but that would take miracles.
It's not just the analogues, there's a lot of designs of digitals that aren't suited for serious chess, but as it involves them spending money to upgrade how many associations/clubs/schools do you think will actually do it, personally I think the biggest take up will be schools/junior associations, but I hope to be proven wrong.

IanCalvert
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by IanCalvert » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Roger noted that adjudication and adjournment aren't as dead as you might hope.

Indeed, possibly games with adjudication or adjourment should be excluded from ECF grading?

I currently have a probably lost, London League, adjourned game which has generated some enjoyable related computer analysis but it is not 180 chess!

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