Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Gareth T Ellis
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Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Chess Arbiters Association AGM
Postby Gareth T Ellis » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:34 pm

"It was noted that most leagues were still using mechanical clocks and that 10/2 was alive in local league use."

Is this correct ?
The number of digital clocks being sold within the UK would suggest that leagues have mostly moved away from mechanical clocks.
So, is your league all/mostly Digital or Mechanical ?

Postby MartinCarpenter » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:23 pm
Digital clocks I think getting common - the cheap ones are cheap now - but you really can't assume that digital clocks automatically mean increment time controls.
Martin is of course correct regarding the increment time control, but personally I think it will happen eventually even if it's years down the line.

In the past chess had adjournments/adjudications then congresses introduced quickplay finishes, the rest of the congresses switched fairly quickly but league chess took far longer to adapt and a few possibly still haven't. Congresses are now changing to increment time controls, this will spread quickly as it requires less arbiters/controllers so less expense and there is already a shortage of arbiters in some parts of the country. Some leagues already allow it if agreeable to both players, this was how the quickplay finish started until the majority wanted to switch entirely.

Although digital clocks are now far more common within league chess and in general used in the majority of games, not all of the clocks are capable of incremental timings, something for clubs to consider if purchasing in the future. Players are however getting use to digitals and setting them which is the first step towards what I think will the inevitable switch.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:11 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote: Although digital clocks are now far more common within league chess and in general used in the majority of games
You are getting a few years ahead of yourself there. It may depend where you play, but digitals with or without increment are still in a minority. That's in Leagues that don't have adjudication or adjournment. Adjudication and adjudication aren't as dead as you might hope.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:34 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Adjudication and adjudication aren't as dead as you might hope.
Just a thought on that one. Suppose you combined a 60 30 move rate with a three hour session with an extra half hour added at move 40, move 60 etc. if adjourning. That would push the game stopping point beyond move 40 and minimise the capability for players to sit on their hands because they reached the time control. Or is that too fast a rate for the fans of adjudication ?

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:55 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: digitals with or without increment are still in a minority.
Hummm, I do wonder about that. 5 years ago, yes, now? Digitals are definitely adopting fast - they're price equivalent or even a touch cheaper, so logical to get when replacing. Anologue clocks do die quite often.

Of the places I've played recently, Darlington/Chorlton/York all have digital clocks. If York's digital clocks were usable in the Yorkshire league - they sadly can't even add extra time on at move 42 so aren't really - I think a big majority of my games this season would have used digital clocks.

As for increments - a small (10 sec say) increment strikes me as entirely ideal for evening/Saturday leagues but I won't hold my breath!

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:30 pm

Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:11 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Although digital clocks are now far more common within league chess and in general used in the majority of games

You are getting a few years ahead of yourself there. It may depend where you play, but digitals with or without increment are still in a minority. That's in Leagues that don't have adjudication or adjournment. Adjudication and adjudication aren't as dead as you might hope.
I play/involved in 3 leagues and so far have only came across 2 teams still using mechanical clocks.

Within the UK there are approx 16k regular/graded players and over 1k digitals (with incremental capabilities) have gone into circulation within the last 6 months alone. Your opinion is based on where you play and not what's happening in the rest of the country.

It'll take a long time but increment time controls will eventually come into league chess.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:49 pm

The problem with introducing incremental controls in league chess, aside from the availability of digital clocks, is the fact that the playing session is no longer of a set length. This could cause problems when the match room is only available until a specific time or a player needs to catch the last bus.
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BrianRobinson
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by BrianRobinson » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:04 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:The problem with introducing incremental controls in league chess, aside from the availability of digital clocks, is the fact that the playing session is no longer of a set length. This could cause problems when the match room is only available until a specific time or a player needs to catch the last bus.
Or indeed, where players want to get home at a reasonable hour.


Brian Towers
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Brian Towers » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:26 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:How many moves would you expect the longest games to last then ?
An excellent point which the nay-sayers completely fail to understand.

For instance, the Northumberland League specifies G90 or G75+10 where digital clocks are available.
A G90 game will last 3 hours at the most.
A 60 move G75+10 game will last 2 hours 50 minutes at the most.
A 90 move G75+10 game will last 3 hours at the most.
I doubt very much any of the nay-sayers have played a 90 move game at G90.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:34 pm

Vaguely remember the Stockport league is even only G80+5, which really struggles to go on for an excessively long time.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:45 pm

I agree that the problem of an unlimited game isn't going to come up that often, however all it takes is that one time when a game reaches a complex technical endgame; player A insists on playing on and Player B needs to get the last bus. You'll always get players who don't realise that they can't win with bishop and rook's pawn against king when the bishop is the wrong colour or adults facing juniors who choose to play on with king and rook against king and rook to see if their opponent will fall into a trap (I've been there).
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Mick Norris
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:07 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Vaguely remember the Stockport league is even only G80+5, which really struggles to go on for an excessively long time.
G80+10
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:59 am

Ok :) I do wonder if +5 (6?) wouldn't be a good compromise. With not recording I think its still enough time/move to not blunder horribly, but 5/6 double moves/minute rather than three would make it very hard to notably extend the playing session.

I guess 80+10 will fairly often have one game go past the alternative 90+0 time limit. Maybe someone is keeping stats :)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:13 pm

Brian Towers wrote: I doubt very much any of the nay-sayers have played a 90 move game at G90.
Longer games are more likely with increments because the player seeking the win doesn't risk running out of time. The disadvantage of increments less than 30 seconds is that with scoring not required and the clocks not displaying a counter, ending games by the fifty or even seventy five move rules becomes problematic.

Brian Towers
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Brian Towers » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:44 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: The disadvantage of increments less than 30 seconds is that with scoring not required and the clocks not displaying a counter, ending games by the fifty or even seventy five move rules becomes problematic.
Well done, Roger! You've just given one of the many good reasons why you need an arbiter.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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