Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:04 pm

IanCalvert wrote:Roger noted that adjudication and adjournment aren't as dead as you might hope.

Indeed, possibly games with adjudication or adjourment should be excluded from ECF grading?

I currently have a probably lost, London League, adjourned game which has generated some enjoyable related computer analysis but it is not 180 chess!
Adjudications yes IMO, adjournments no - I dislike them but a case could maybe be made for it in very specific, limited circumstances.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:11 pm

IanCalvert wrote: Indeed, possibly games with adjudication or adjourment should be excluded from ECF grading?
There was a proposal to that effect at the 2014 AGM.

This was how it got on

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1415/bcf.htm
[6) Adjudications. The Home Director proposed (the Board took no position) that events permitting adjudication be no longer accepted for grading with effect from 1st July 2015. You know the arguments, they've been well enough rehearsed. The proposal was lost on a show of hands by 12 votes to 23, then on a card vote by 85 votes to 138.
In those leagues where there is still a resolute desire to retain adjudication and adjournment, if those who favour such methods do so because they cannot contemplate getting through sixty moves or more in a single three hour evening session, they aren't going to accept ten, fifteen or twenty second increments either.

David Gilbert
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by David Gilbert » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:25 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
IanCalvert wrote: Indeed, possibly games with adjudication or adjourment should be excluded from ECF grading?
There was a proposal to that effect at the 2014 AGM.

This was how it got on

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1415/bcf.htm
[6) Adjudications. The Home Director proposed (the Board took no position) that events permitting adjudication be no longer accepted for grading with effect from 1st July 2015. You know the arguments, they've been well enough rehearsed. The proposal was lost on a show of hands by 12 votes to 23, then on a card vote by 85 votes to 138.
In those leagues where there is still a resolute desire to retain adjudication and adjournment, if those who favour such methods do so because they cannot contemplate getting through sixty moves or more in a single three hour evening session, they aren't going to accept ten, fifteen or twenty second increments either.
My recollection was that the real issue, as articulated by those who spoke at Council that afternoon against the Home Director’s proposal, was allied to deep concerns about imposing central control and removing local autonomy. That’s what won the day. I don’t suppose there were many in the room who regarded it as a vote against the principle of abolishing adjudication. It was about local leagues and counties having freedom to make their own decisions.

It was interesting that Brian Smith had sent Stewart Reuben to the meeting as his proxy with a clear London League mandate to vote against. Although adjudication is not generally allowed in the London League it is available exceptionally to braille players (of whom at the time there was one who had never sought to have a game adjudicated) and, if agreed as drafted, the proposal would have meant no London League games could be graded. Stewart sought and received assurances from the Home Director that there could be exclusions for people with disabilities, but that was not reflected by rewording the proposal.
Last edited by David Gilbert on Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:34 am

David Gilbert wrote: My recollection was that the real issue, as articulated by those who spoke at Council that afternoon against the Home Director’s proposal, was allied to deep concerns about imposing central control and removing local autonomy.
I would agree that was what it was about. But if there's deep seated opposition to the notion that you should play at a faster pace than around forty moves in three hours, increments aren't going to be accepted either.

Nick Grey
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:14 pm

rdc you seem to ignore some rather basic differences over forty years.

Journeys can be 90 minutes each way - they may have been 45 minutes in the past. Traffic congestion, awful rush hour on public transport.

Those working 8-4 or 9-5 (that's changed in last 20 years) though may have been OK with retired from work & their free passes.

Many going for 2.5 hour rather than 3 as a consequence. There are rules on hire too. Clearing up & putting away & closing).

If we had increments then players will have to accept that they can be thrown out.

And more to the point our member clubs have voted on it. Personally I take the option of playing on & in many occasions am likely to agree a result with my opponent before resumption.

Personally looking forward to a county match with excellent time control with +10 secs tomorrow (having played 3 league games this week).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:26 pm

Nick Grey wrote:rdc you seem to ignore some rather basic differences over forty years.
Fifty years ago, it was regarded as beneath dignity to play at a rate faster than 6 moves every 15 minutes. So if a session was restricted to 150 minutes, the game could be curtailed at 30 moves. Forty years ago, Congresses were embracing the notion that a faster rate of play was possible and even desirable.

Rapidplay tournaments finish a game within an hour. With the relative luxury of two hours and thirty minutes or longer, it should be possible to finish a game within an evening, but yes, players would have to play faster than perhaps they are comfortable with. Outside of some strongholds of adjudications and adjournments, playing evening league games to a finish without intervention by third parties is a long since resolved issue.

Nick Grey
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:53 pm

Apart from the fact that no club has ever suggested (or got through a proposal) in Thames Valley of a faster than 30 moves in 60 mins + 15 mins QP or 35 moves in 75 minutes, + another session same length.

You seem to ignore that congresses mostly are weekends & most leagues play evenings.

Quite honestly the county match journey on one leg of the route last w/e was worse than a rush hour journey. but I have a lift tomorrow to play a nice game of chess at an agreed time limit. If I wanted to play a Rapidplay tournament I know where to go.

Please do not question local decisions in leagues which may have more pressing issues that those leagues are dealing with.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:07 am

Nick Grey wrote: Please do not question local decisions in leagues which may have more pressing issues that those leagues are dealing with.

Many years ago, I made a personal decision that I would boycott the Thames Valley league for as long as it persisted in adjudications and adjournments. It's not a decision I regret even though there's a club not so many miles away that competes in that league.

The neighbouring counties of both Berks and Bucks were able to agree to three hour sessions with games determined on the night with relatively little dissent. The technical methods of achieving this differ, but the principle is the same. In one of the lower divisions, the time limit is 75 minutes for all moves, again with little dissent.

Nick Grey
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:28 am

That's your choice. And Berks & Bucks.

The issue for Thames Valley is out in far reaches teams were fine playing at home, could not raise a team playing away. Was also much same going the other way. I'm also far more likely to agree a quick play finish on a longer journey though cannot argue if my opponent wants to play slow play particularly as in the rules.

Anyway enjoy your chess.

NickFaulks
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:37 am

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:36 pm

How on earth do you get any value from the anologues though? These are often things that need non trivial repairs first and which quite honestly you'd not truly trust even after those :)
The value is in removing them from from serious chess, not everything a business does has to have an immediate benefit :shock:

For Chess in the UK to be taken seriously and stand any chance of serious sponsorship or large numbers taking it up otb, it needs a different image.
4NCL, E2E4, British Championships, Chess Scotland etc already have it, most clubs don't, using equipment decades old because it still goes (just about).

My idea may or may not work but at least I'll have tried to do something to improve the situation instead of just posting on a forum day after day while waiting for someone else to do something :roll:
Hi Gareth,

I've been trying to contact you for some time by PM, phone and email, but no luck. Is your company still in business?

Best wishes,

Nick
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Reg Clucas
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:42 pm

AustinElliott wrote:For instance, we currently have in Greater Manchester at least three leagues all using different time controls. Thus Manchester Winter League (30/75+20min to finish, option for increments by mutual consent), Stockport League (80 min + 10sec increment, option for game in 90 min) and the Summer League (game in 75 min). Hardly surprising some people get confused....
Somewhat belatedly, I am pleased to report that the Summer League AGM a few weeks ago voted to adopt the same time control as the Stockport League, including the incremental option at the home team's discretion.

Reg Clucas
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:43 pm

Reg Clucas wrote: Somewhat belatedly, I am pleased to report that the Summer League AGM a few weeks ago voted to adopt the same time control as the Stockport League, including the incremental option at the home team's discretion.
...and the Manchester League has also now voted for increments at the home team's discretion.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Adam Raoof » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:42 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Gareth T Ellis wrote:
MartinCarpenter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:36 pm

How on earth do you get any value from the anologues though? These are often things that need non trivial repairs first and which quite honestly you'd not truly trust even after those :)
The value is in removing them from from serious chess, not everything a business does has to have an immediate benefit :shock:

For Chess in the UK to be taken seriously and stand any chance of serious sponsorship or large numbers taking it up otb, it needs a different image.
4NCL, E2E4, British Championships, Chess Scotland etc already have it, most clubs don't, using equipment decades old because it still goes (just about).

My idea may or may not work but at least I'll have tried to do something to improve the situation instead of just posting on a forum day after day while waiting for someone else to do something :roll:
Hi Gareth,

I've been trying to contact you for some time by PM, phone and email, but no luck. Is your company still in business?

Best wishes,

Nick
Me too, but I just assumed was being ignored!
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Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Increment Time Controls in Leagues ?

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:58 pm

Hi Gareth,

I've been trying to contact you for some time by PM, phone and email, but no luck. Is your company still in business?
Just seen this, YES my company is still in business but I've hardly been involved in it since May as the website accounts for about 99% of business.
Been looking after my brother following a bad injury.

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