ECF Vacancies

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
benedgell
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by benedgell » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm

@Nigel Davies, you appear to have a lot of ideas about the future direction of English Chess. Would you ever consider taking steps to put them into practise? Even if you personally don't have time to devote to a role, I wonder whether you know anyone and would be prepared to approach anyone who might be willing and suitable to volunteer for the ECF?

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Nigel_Davies » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:50 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote: I take Nigel's point about a war zone but can he say with confidence that professionals would work together any better? At least one legendary spat springs to mind.

If separation did occur I can foresee two structural problems.

GMs and IMs would be able to play in properly organised closed tournaments. However there would be less opportunity for FMs who would have to earn their bread and butter in weekend congresses. Separation might encourage people to organise stars barred tournaments (which I am opposed to I hasten to add) and tell FMs that if they want opportunities to play they should take it up with the professional body.
I'm not sure I have the dividing line in the right place because as you mention, there's lots of blurring between professionals and amateurs over 2200. It's more the clear difference in aims that are incompatible between those who play chess as a hobby and those who aspire to gain titles etc. I don't see how any of this would affect tournaments, there are rating restrictions anyway both with stars being barred and lower limits.

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Nigel_Davies » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:55 pm

benedgell wrote:@Nigel Davies, you appear to have a lot of ideas about the future direction of English Chess. Would you ever consider taking steps to put them into practise? Even if you personally don't have time to devote to a role, I wonder whether you know anyone and would be prepared to approach anyone who might be willing and suitable to volunteer for the ECF?
I'd be happy to flesh out this framework if there was a genuine interest in going this way and perhaps even consider some role to bring this about if I could clear the decks. Meanwhile there are people around who have broadly similar views and many of my sentiments are shared by board members. It's really just a question of there being a consensus on clear goals and the will to do it.

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Nigel_Davies » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:06 pm

Afterthought: Here's another way you might achieve a similar effect without major surgery:

1) Have FREE (yes FREE) basic membership, no game fee or anything. ECF grades are included.
2) Have an international membership for those who wish to play in FIDE rated tournaments and charge £50-£100 per annum.
3) PAYING members get voting rights on a one member one vote basis.

The effect will be that those who pay (generally speaking stronger players) can elect who they want. This will most likely be people more sympathetic to their goals and more likely to bring in sponsorship. Meanwhile you lower the entry cost for anyone who wants to start competitive chess.

Obviously there will be a shortfall in revenue, at least at first. But it could help create a more equitable body in which neither amateurs nor 'aspirants' feel as hard done by as they do at present.
Last edited by Nigel_Davies on Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Simon Brown
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:19 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:To an extent he has a point but I can only think of three titled players (Lawrence Cooper, Malcolm Pein, Nigel Short) who have sought and held elected positions within the ECF.
You can also add me, Peter Sowray, Stewart Reuben and Peter Wilson to that list.
My apologies Jack, I knew there would be somebody I overlooked.
Going back even further you can add David Norwood and me. And Ray Keene of course.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:23 pm

What role(s) did you hold? And what role did David Norwood hold?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:32 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:What role(s) did you hold? And what role did David Norwood hold?
Both were International Director as far as I recall. In their era, finance wasn't so much of a problem with bankers Duncan Lawrie as sponsors.

Simon Brown
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:44 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:What role(s) did you hold? And what role did David Norwood hold?
I was International Director, David was Publicity Director. We overlapped briefly if I recall correctly.

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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:What role(s) did you hold? And what role did David Norwood hold?
Both were International Director as far as I recall. In their era, finance wasn't so much of a problem with bankers Duncan Lawrie as sponsors.
That's a bit simplistic. Duncan Lawrie sponsored the England teams, not the BCF, but we did have the grant, though even then its demise was inevitable. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:10 pm

Nigel_Davies wrote: 1) Have FREE (yes FREE) basic membership, no game fee or anything. ECF grades are included.
2) Have an international membership for those who wish to play in FIDE rated tournaments and charge £50-£100 per annum.
3) PAYING members get voting rights on a one member one vote basis.
That's effectively a £50 surcharge on some very low-level stuff. The Coulsdon club championship, for example, is FIDE-rated all the way down.

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:20 pm

Nigel_Davies wrote:Afterthought: Here's another way you might achieve a similar effect without major surgery:

1) Have FREE (yes FREE) basic membership, no game fee or anything. ECF grades are included.
2) Have an international membership for those who wish to play in FIDE rated tournaments and charge £50-£100 per annum.
3) PAYING members get voting rights on a one member one vote basis.

The effect will be that those who pay (generally speaking stronger players) can elect who they want. This will most likely be people more sympathetic to their goals and more likely to bring in sponsorship. Meanwhile you lower the entry cost for anyone who wants to start competitive chess.

Obviously there will be a shortfall in revenue, at least at first. But it could help create a more equitable body in which neither amateurs nor 'aspirants' feel as hard done by as they do at present.
Looking at the current ECF Membership list if my maths is correct (and leaving lifetime members out of the equation):

Bronze - Adults 3654 @ £15 = £54,810, Juniors 190 @ £11 = £2,090, total £56,900
Silver - Adults 1772 @ £22 = £38,984, Juniors 499 @ £16 = £7,984, total £46,968
Gold - Adults 1787 @ £32 = £57,184, Juniors 486 @ £26 = £12,636, total £69,820
Platinum - Adults 122 @ £60 = £7,320, Juniors 5 @ £60 = £300, total £7,620

Game fee income is c£13,000

Proposal 1) would appear to cost £56,900 + £46,968 + £13,000 = £116,868 (actual cost higher, as some members have bought 3 year membership and would need to be refunded years 2 or 3)

Proposal 2) would recoup this @ a membership fee of £81 if all existing gold and platinum members stumped up the additional fee (although again some have paid 2 or 3 year membership), although if juniors were given a discount, then adults would be paying at least £85 each

Proposal 3) would give you a voting membership of 2,400
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Nigel_Davies » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:24 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Nigel_Davies wrote: 1) Have FREE (yes FREE) basic membership, no game fee or anything. ECF grades are included.
2) Have an international membership for those who wish to play in FIDE rated tournaments and charge £50-£100 per annum.
3) PAYING members get voting rights on a one member one vote basis.
That's effectively a £50 surcharge on some very low-level stuff. The Coulsdon club championship, for example, is FIDE-rated all the way down.
They could always stop FIDE rating it, depending on demand. But this would be a simple way to distinguish between membership levels.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:28 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: That's effectively a £50 surcharge on some very low-level stuff.
Events like Hastings, the London Classic already surcharge the entry fees for those without FIDE ratings.

Hastings for example
Players with FIDE Ratings:
2100 and above £72
Below 2100 £112
Players without FIDE Ratings:
ECF190 (Elo 2120) and above £122
Below ECF 190 (Elo 2120) £142
It's a charging structure that's been in place for twenty years, if not longer. One of its effects is that "all one section" Opens are relatively uncommon in the UK.

With little practical effect in terms of income, given that every entrant now has a rating, organisers could consider scrapping these surcharges, perhaps to encourage a greater spread of entry. Part of the motivation is presumably to deter weaker players from diluting the strength of the field.

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by Nigel_Davies » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:29 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Proposal 1) would appear to cost £56,900 + £46,968 + £13,000 = £116,868 (actual cost higher, as some members have bought 3 year membership and would need to be refunded years 2 or 3)
You could end the 3 year offers and phase it in to coincide with these finishing, it might be difficult to issue refunds.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF Vacancies

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:44 pm

Event-level surcharges aren't really the issue under discussion here, Roger. You can always not enter a particular FIDE-rated event if it's charging you too much to do so. The issue is that a marginal cost of £50 having the right to enter FIDE-rated tournaments would probably be a huge disincentive, compared with the current marginal cost of £10.

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