ECF elections 2016

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:24 pm

IanCalvert wrote: Can someone explain why , given we have moved to Platinum-Bronze membership from the old game fee system that tournaments continue to have the voting power, loosely number of votes they do?
That's a very good point.

The Articles of Association (i.e. Article 30) determine and assign voting rights by reference to "Game Fee" which was the system of generating income before the introduction of the current direct membership system.

Today, "Game Fee" is only levied on the small number of individuals who elect not to join the direct membership scheme and, therefore, by definition are not ECF members.

If it is thought that voting rights should continued to be allocated according to recorded chess activity (i.e. the number of graded the games submitted to the ECF) then the term "Game Fee" should be replaced by a more appropriate term.

Should clubs, where players meet and play regularly, have voting rights?

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:01 pm

IanCalvert wrote: Can someone explain why , given we have moved to Platinum-Bronze membership from the old game fee system that tournaments continue to have the voting power, loosely number of votes they do?
I’ve no idea. The current system makes no sense to me at all.

It’s like abolishing individual voting rights for the general election and giving all the votes to the supermarkets instead. Anybody complaining that they are still the ones paying the taxes would be told, "If you don’t like what Sainsbury’s are doing, you should shop at Safeway instead".

Except it’s worse than that because the chess tournaments I can enter are restricted by geography and travel considerations whereas I do have a genuine choice as to the supermarket from which I buy my sausages.



With regard to the e2e4 incident - I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve always enjoyed playing at e2e4 events because of the very good playing conditions and also because I find them to be well run. My ongoing leo-rating plummet notwithstanding, I had fun at Crawley this weekend. It’s a shame to hear that somebody’s experience wasn’t as positive as mine.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:58 pm

We've had this discussion about direct members vs congress influence at Council many times and no doubt we'll have it many more times in the future. Most people agree that reform is needed but unfortunately it's not something that can be brought in overnight but instead will require a lot of detailed constitutional change.

I disagree with the suggestion that congresses are not accountable. A congress needs entrants to remain viable; individual members wouldn't have much influence within the ECF even if OMOV was brought in but they can influence congresses simply by voting with their feet. In that respect the current system is preferable to increased votes for direct membership representatives who are under no obligation to consult (the current representatives all seem to do an excellent job and the silver ones certainly do I hasten to add). There were several individuals last year who pretty much demanded positions of responsibility on the grounds that they supposedly spoke for members.

Regarding Michael Flatt's question about chess clubs; one chess club (Barnstaple) is listed as a member of council. So other clubs could presumably apply for membership.
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John Hickman
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by John Hickman » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:02 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:My ongoing leo-rating plummet notwithstanding
You need to do more roaring to get it back up :wink:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:08 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote: A congress needs entrants to remain viable; individual members wouldn't have much influence within the ECF even if OMOV was brought in but they can influence congresses simply by voting with their feet.
I doubt that Congresses take the slightest notice of those who don't enter their events. It's not even as if they take any notice of those who do.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote: A congress needs entrants to remain viable; individual members wouldn't have much influence within the ECF even if OMOV was brought in but they can influence congresses simply by voting with their feet.
I doubt that Congresses take the slightest notice of those who don't enter their events. It's not even as if they take any notice of those who do.
Well perhaps not one individual player. If entries were substantially down on the previous year due to unsatisfied players and the organiser couldn't meet its overheads and prize fund then I think they might notice.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:32 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Well perhaps not one individual player. If entries were substantially down on the previous year due to unsatisfied players and the organiser couldn't meet its overheads and prize fund then I think they might notice.
How would they find out if the dissatisfaction was down to how their Representative Member voted in ECF meetings?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:38 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote: Regarding Michael Flatt's question about chess clubs; one chess club (Barnstaple) is listed as a member of council. So other clubs could presumably apply for membership.
Jack Rudd made a case for special treatment. Barnstable is geographically isolated in North Devon and acts as a organiser for local events.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:47 pm

Atm the ECF will be missing a big chunk of junior games vis a vis previous years so may have a lot to do if trying to get counties/junior organisers to take up what appears to be an enormous chunk of graded games.

As for N.Devon it was very much isolated trains and buses a even more so since early 1980s when I was in Exeter. A nice place to stop for tea/coffee on the way to the coast. Coach hire plus driver for day was less than £100.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:22 pm

IanCalvert wrote:After a very unhappy, disqualification threat related incident , at the e2e4 congress in Crawley last weekend, I have begun to question the voting power of tournaments in ECF elections.
I am an ardent supporter of one member, one vote and brought proposals to Council a couple of years ago to that effect. Sadly, those proposals got watered down and the Pearce commission somehow decided that there was no need for OMOV.

What I am not a fan of is players being aggressive or abusive because they happen to have received a bye in accordance with the FIDE laws of chess. The fact that you were totally ignorant of the laws in this regard was no excuse, and your expectation that I should 'magic' an opponent out of thin air - or give the bye to someone else - was utterly unrealistic. When someone acts in the manner that you did, you should be grateful that disqualification was merely threatened. Had it been on the football field, you would have been dismissed.

I had considered your apology on Sunday to have been genuine. I was clearly mistaken.

I have contracts for seven 2017 events on my desk ready to sign. It's actions of players like you that make me think seriously about whether I should do so.
Jonathan Bryant wrote: I’ve always enjoyed playing at e2e4 events because of the very good playing conditions and also because I find them to be well run.
whilst comments from people like Jon, and many others at the weekend, convince me that I should. Our events will continue without you and the Sage of Bourne End.
Last edited by Sean Hewitt on Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:31 pm

Nick Grey wrote: Atm the ECF will be missing a big chunk of junior games vis a vis previous years so may have a lot to do if trying to get counties/junior organisers to take up what appears to be an enormous chunk of graded games.
As far as I'm aware only a handful of UKCC events were graded. If UKCC wasn't going to pay HMRC VAT on entry fees, it wasn't going to pay the ECF memberships or Game Fee either.

From the ECF's "Events received for grading" (2015-16)

Aug 15-16 2015 Delancey UK Chess Challenge: Terafinal; Challengers A, B, C; Relax Major, Minor GP

Mar 31 R Oxon Junior: UKCC Megafinal qualifier GP
Apr 4 R Oxon Junior: UKCC Last Chance Saloon GP
May 2 R Berkshire Megafinal (part)
May 7 R Cornwall U16 Megafinal GP
June 12 R Bucks Megafinal GP

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:35 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: whilst comments from people like Jon, and many others at the weekend, convince me that I should. Our events will continue without you and the Sage of Bourne End.
Are you saying that you would refuse an entry from me at one of your events?

Do you really want the issue of the disappearing prize fund at the 2014 English Seniors to be brought back into the the public domain?

Still it's the opposite to a well known incident in the Isle of Man for a player to complain about a bye being awarded.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Are you saying that you would refuse an entry from me at one of your events?
The position has not changed since I confirmed that to be the case on this very forum.
Roger de Coverly wrote:Do you really want the issue of the disappearing prize fund at the 2014 English Seniors to be brought back into the the public domain?
I really don't care about your lies. The fact that Alex Holowczak and I both confirmed that the prize fund was advertised at the venue from Round 2 onwards (in accordance with the regulations for the event) is a mere inconvenience to you. Our events are better for your absence.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:51 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: The fact that Alex Holowczak and I both confirmed that the prize fund was advertised at the venue from Round 2 onwards (in accordance with the regulations for the event) is a mere inconvenience to you.
Why then did you not convey this fact to my fellow non-winner of third prize? I gave it until Aberystwyth for you to make a public announcement about the prize winners, Unlike e2e4's normal practice, there was no announcement of Senior prize winners until the ECF cajoled you into action as a result of my going public about it on this forum and the ECF's.

Whilst organisers usually give themselves the right to cut prize funds and amalgamate sections, this was a supposedly official ECF title event. Is it ECF policy to cut prize funds for events under its name?

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF elections 2016, Voting Power

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Why then did you not convey this fact to my fellow non-winner of third prize?
As soon as he raised it with me, I did. Until then, I had no idea that he had any expectation of a prize (obviously).
Roger de Coverly wrote:Unlike e2e4's normal practice, there was no announcement of Senior prize winners until the ECF cajoled you into action as a result of my going public about it on this forum and the ECF's.
Not obvious enough? http://www.e2e4.org.uk/sunningdale/Apr2 ... /index.htm
Roger de Coverly wrote:Whilst organisers usually give themselves the right to cut prize funds and amalgamate sections, this was a supposedly official ECF title event. Is it ECF policy to cut prize funds for events under its name?
I know that you like your rules and regulations, so I have no doubt that you studied the entry form before entering http://www.e2e4.org.uk/sunningdale/Apr2 ... s_2014.pdf frm which
2014 Seniors Entry Form wrote:Prizes may be amended subject to numbers of entries.
We had 12 entries. We took £510 in entry fees. We paid out £750 in prize money. 1 in 6 entrants received a prize.

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