Abolish Game Fee!

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Michael Flatt
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Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:16 pm

It occurs to me that chasing payment of game fee from individuals who only play a few games a year is an unenviable task. So, why not abolish game fee once and for all and allow those playing less than 5 graded games not pay anything?

Five games is the minimum number of graded games required to register an F grade and also the minimum number of games one might expect to play in a one day rapid play or weekend tournament.

An infrequent player gains no real benefit from paying game fee since he or she will have played insufficient games to register an ECF grade.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:05 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: So, why not abolish game fee once and for all and allow those playing less than 5 graded games not pay anything?
What happens to those who play five or more games without being members?

That will include visitors from outside of England playing in tournaments.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:12 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:What happens to those who play five or more games without being members?

That will include visitors from outside of England playing in tournaments.
The idea is to get away from levying fees on individual games. On playing a fifth graded game a player needs to register as an ECF member.

I've just referred to the ECF exemptions page and note a change in the treatment of FIDE rated events effective from 31st August 2016. Something of which I previously wasn't aware (or had forgotten): http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membersh ... xemptions/
(1) FIDE-rated standard-play events
From 31st August 2016 a fixed pay to play fee of £10 for both adults and juniors will be charged for each participant who is a non-member or a member in a category other than junior or adult gold or platinum at the date of the event.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:41 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:. On playing a fifth graded game a player needs to register as an ECF member.
What would happen if they don't?

Registering as an ECF member involves paying the ECF money.

Brian Valentine
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Brian Valentine » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:52 pm

These give-aways sound a nice idea, but has to be in context. Council agreed to budget a dip into reserves for this year and game fees are budgeted to bring in £14K this year.

How would you pay for the idea?

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:54 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote:. On playing a fifth graded game a player needs to register as an ECF member.
What would happen if they don't?

Registering as an ECF member involves paying the ECF money.
No change from whatever happens now.
Presumably, the organiser of the event (who allowed an unregistered player to participate) will end up out-of-pocket since they will be invoiced by the ECF.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:03 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:These give-aways sound a nice idea, but has to be in context. Council agreed to budget a dip into reserves for this year and game fees are budgeted to bring in £14K this year.

How would you pay for the idea?
I find it difficult to believe that levies on players who record less than five graded games amounts to £14K.

Unregistered players who compete in tournaments (of five or more rounds) will still pay a registration fee which will make them ECF members.

IanCalvert
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by IanCalvert » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:09 pm

Brian

The budgeted 14K is I think interesting and important. I guess some of the actual will come from leagues and club tournaments but even if it all comes from congresses it hardly justifies congress voting power in ECF elections.

Doubtless you could balance the ECF budget without it? Give us a clue??

MJMcCready
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by MJMcCready » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:25 pm

The next time I ask myself why chess in England is in such decline I must remember to return to this thread.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:32 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:It occurs to me that chasing payment of game fee from individuals who only play a few games a year is an unenviable task. So, why not abolish game fee once and for all and allow those playing less than 5 graded games not pay anything?

Five games is the minimum number of graded games required to register an F grade and also the minimum number of games one might expect to play in a one day rapid play or weekend tournament.

An infrequent player gains no real benefit from paying game fee since he or she will have played insufficient games to register an ECF grade.
If a requisition were to put this forward Council would have to hear the debate. If the proposal was accompanied by detailed figures and budgeting it would probably stand a reasonable chance of success. I suppose the question would be how many non members just play a handful of games each season.

At my club we are happy to stomach the £2.50 for an adhoc reserve and/ or a new player. If that player starts playing more frequently then we can have a chat with them about their options and of course, if they join the ECF, any liability is wiped out. If anything it's an incentive for clubs to work harder on retaining new players.
Last edited by Andrew Zigmond on Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
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John Reyes
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by John Reyes » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:59 pm

I mention at one of the ECF AGM about the membership fees for Bronze/Silver and Gold about dropping the fees and there was no support!

Also at the 2015 AGM I did ask the question about the decline of bronze/silver/gold members from last year and was told yes

Now the only way you could get around the game fee is either charging the following and that if they want to play chess then they have to be a member of the ECF!!

Adult Bronze
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £15.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £45.00
Junior Bronze
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £11.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £33.00 (#)

Adult Bronze One Year £12
Junior Bronze One year £10


Adult Silver
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £22.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £66.00
Junior Silver
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £16.00 (*) | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £48.00 (#)

Adult Silver One Year £20
Junior Silver One Year £15


Adult Gold
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £32.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £96.00
Junior Gold
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £26.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £78.00 (#)

Adult Gold One Year £30
Junior Gold One Year £25


Adult Platinum
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £60.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £180.00 (#)
Junior Platinum
One year (expires 31/8/17) – £60.00 | Three years (expires 31/8/19) – £180.00 (#)

Same


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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:30 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: Unregistered players who compete in tournaments (of five or more rounds) will still pay a registration fee which will make them ECF members.
That's not a correct statement. There is no concept of a "registration fee". You become a "member" although not a Member in the Companies Act sense by paying at the minimum the Bronze membership fee. You could always play in domestically graded Congresses and now FIDE rated ones where the event organiser was charged a fee by the ECF. This does NOT confer membership.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:42 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: Unregistered players who compete in tournaments (of five or more rounds) will still pay a registration fee which will make them ECF members.
That's not a correct statement. There is no concept of a "registration fee". You become a "member" although not a Member in the Companies Act sense by paying at the minimum the Bronze membership fee. You could always play in domestically graded Congresses and now FIDE rated ones where the event organiser was charged a fee by the ECF. This does NOT confer membership.
I want to eliminate the silly bills from the ECF chasing grading fees for individual games played by unregistered players (or if you prefer, non ECF members). Why can't games be bundled together as events since that's how the results are actually submitted for grading? Why should so much time be wasted by club officials in chasing small fees owing to the ECF by individual players?

With regards what constitutes membership, I am sure that some suitable form of words could be added to the ECF constitution. Membership is whatever the ECF chooses to define it to be.

Mike Truran
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:50 pm

1. How do you make a player sign up for Bronze if he/she plays more than (say) five games?

2. If you don't bill the player, which league do you bill if the player plays in more than one league?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Why can't games be bundled together as events since that's how the results are actually submitted for grading. Why should so much time be wasted by club officials in chasing small fees owing to the ECF by individual players?
It is the club officials who are choosing to waste their time. Obviously I can't speak for events I am not associated with but in the case of the Yorkshire League the ECF bills us for game fee and the league in turn invoices constituent members as appropriate. It is up to the CMs (generally clubs) to work out how that money is accounted for. At my club the fee is always collected at source (ie before matches when other fees have to be paid) and we accept that we may lose the odd £2.50 here and there from occasional reserves.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

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