Abolish Game Fee!

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:13 pm

Mike Truran wrote:1. How do you make a player sign up for Bronze if he/she plays more than (say) five games?

2. If you don't bill the player, which league do you bill if the player plays in more than one league?
I don't understand the difficulty. All I am proposing is that a player who doesn't play five graded games doesn't incur fees. It is intended to simplify administration by omitting what I see as time consuming marginal tasks.

At present, players are not invoiced individually; it is the competition organiser, normally the county association or club, that gets the bill and has to either chase small fees or quite often just pay up themselves.

The benefit is that players who only a few games won't be surprised with fees that the team captain forgot to mention when searching out a player for an empty board. Once a player gets to play a few games he or she is more likely to play more. It might be termed a loss leader.

Richard Bates
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:22 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:1. How do you make a player sign up for Bronze if he/she plays more than (say) five games?

2. If you don't bill the player, which league do you bill if the player plays in more than one league?
I don't understand the difficulty. All I am proposing is that a player who doesn't play five graded games doesn't incur fees. It is intended to simplify administration by omitting what I see as time consuming marginal tasks.

At present, players are not invoiced individually; it is the competition organiser, normally the county association or club, that gets the bill and has to either chase small fees or quite often just pay up themselves.

The benefit is that players who only a few games won't be surprised with fees that the team captain forgot to mention when searching out a player for an empty board. Once a player gets to play a few games he or she is more likely to play more. It might be termed a loss leader.
Game Fee/pay to play doesn't only apply to individuals that have played fewer than five games. It might even be more time consuming to have to separate out those who have played fewer than five, and those who have played more than five before issuing the invoice ie. it's possibly administratively simpler if the only criteria for invoicing is "not a member", as opposed to introducing an additional one.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:43 pm

Richard Bates wrote: Game Fee/pay to play doesn't only apply to individuals that have played fewer than five games. It might even be more time consuming to have to separate out those who have played fewer than five, and those who have played more than five before issuing the invoice ie. it's possibly administratively simpler if the only criteria for invoicing is "not a member", as opposed to introducing an additional one.
Administratively simpler for the ECF, maybe? Congresses and other short term events that players sign up for as individuals aren't affected.

I am thinking about county, league and club secretaries/treasurers running team competitions over a whole season. Often team captains are desperate to fill an empty board and suffer the consequences at the and of the season when they discover the player that saved them from a loss by default wasn't an ECF member.

Mike Truran
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:58 pm

Michael

I'm not sure you've answered either of my two questions?

Mike

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:13 pm

Mike Truran wrote:Michael

I'm not sure you've answered either of my two questions?

Mike
I don't see that they are meaningful questions because the ECF already achieves those things.

My proposal is simply to introduce a minimum accounting quantity of five games instead of one when invoicing organisers for games by individual players. The Fee for five games equates to Bronze membership so award players Bronze membership.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:19 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: Why can't games be bundled together as events since that's how the results are actually submitted for grading? Why should so much time be wasted by club officials in chasing small fees owing to the ECF by individual players?
Leagues used to pay Game Fee regardless of who played the game. That's a far better system but the siren voices in favour of compulsory individual membership were having none of it.

Richard Bates
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:35 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Mike Truran wrote:Michael

I'm not sure you've answered either of my two questions?

Mike
I don't see that they are meaningful questions because the ECF already achieves those things.

My proposal is simply to introduce a minimum accounting quantity of five games instead of one when invoicing organisers for games by individual players. The Fee for five games equates to Bronze membership so award players Bronze membership.
So how does this address the question of individuals playing games across several different leagues, but not amassing a total of 5 games in any of them?

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:36 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: Why can't games be bundled together as events since that's how the results are actually submitted for grading? Why should so much time be wasted by club officials in chasing small fees owing to the ECF by individual players?
Leagues used to pay Game Fee regardless of who played the game. That's a far better system but the siren voices in favour of compulsory individual membership were having none of it.
That's an alternative method of charging but it does mean collecting individual board fees. I think that's how Yorkshire continue to levy ECf grading fees.

We have the system that we have, like it or not. I am proposing to modify it to remove some of the administrative chores of local organisers and to encourage infrequent players to play more games.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:39 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: That's an alternative method of charging but it does mean collecting individual board fees.
It doesn't if you don't want it too. Leagues can just charge clubs an entry fee to cover their liability. How clubs do it from there is up to them. You know the total number of games likely to be played in a League from the number of teams, the count of matches to be played and the number of boards per team.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:44 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:I think that's how Yorkshire continue to levy ECf grading fees.
As I noted above the YCA Treasurer invoices competing clubs for game fee owed by non members. How the clubs then account for that money is a matter for that individual club.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:49 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: So how does this address the question of individuals playing games across several different leagues, but not amassing a total of 5 games in any of them?
If that is considered a significant problem, a solution could be found:
one possibility - Invoice each of the leagues for the cost of five games. As I said the minimum accounting quantity is five games.
Other solutions are possible.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:50 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:I've just referred to the ECF exemptions page and note a change in the treatment of FIDE rated events effective from 31st August 2016. Something of which I previously wasn't aware (or had forgotten): http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membersh ... xemptions/
(1) FIDE-rated standard-play events
From 31st August 2016 a fixed pay to play fee of £10 for both adults and juniors will be charged for each participant who is a non-member or a member in a category other than junior or adult gold or platinum at the date of the event.
The ECF website is wrong. The proposal applied to non-Gold ENG players.
Apriul Finance Council wrote:“Game Fee equal to the difference between Silver and Gold membership rates be levied on each England-registered player in an event submitted for FIDE rating through the Federation who is not a Gold or Platinum member of the Federation, and that for members holding Silver membership this payment shall be treated as an upgrade of such membership to Gold.”
As written on the ECF website, it would apply to foreign players too.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:58 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:I find it difficult to believe that levies on players who record less than five graded games amounts to £14K.
If you're making the assumption that everyone who would save money by joining the ECF instead of paying game fees actually does so, you are mistaken if my experience as a league treasurer is anything to go by. I've seen numerous examples of clubs incurring large game fee bills for non-members when it would have cost less to pay the bronze membership fee.
Michael Flatt wrote:My proposal is simply to introduce a minimum accounting quantity of five games instead of one when invoicing organisers for games by individual players.
That might discourage occasional players from playing a 5th game as the marginal cost of playing it would be quite high.
Michael Flatt wrote:The Fee for five games equates to Bronze membership so award players Bronze membership.
This is effectively capping the maximum game fee charge at the Bronze membership fee amount, but you've still got to answer the question Mike Truran asked - which league(s) pay it if the player has played in more than one leaguel?

Mike Truran
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:07 pm

you've still got to answer the question Mike Truran asked - which league(s) pay it if the player has played in more than one leaguel?
Thanks Ian! I think that's the fourth time the question has been asked by three different people.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Abolish Game Fee!

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:11 pm

Mike Truran wrote:
you've still got to answer the question Mike Truran asked - which league(s) pay it if the player has played in more than one leaguel?
Thanks Ian! I think that's the fourth time the question has been asked by three different people.
You could read my response to Richard Bates several posts ago.

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