Possible Voting Reform

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Robert Stern
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Robert Stern » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:36 pm

The question of whether junior Direct Members should have voting rights is not addressed by the consultation paper; it is one of the points that would need to be resolved if a proposal for reform is approved in principle by Council. It would be wrong to assume that the consultation paper is expressing views in favour of junior Direct Members having votes; there are clearly strong arguments to the contrary.

PeterFarr
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by PeterFarr » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:38 pm

Chris Fegan wrote:
PeterFarr wrote:
Chris Fegan wrote:
My proposals were and are designed for proper consideration in serious places and not intended for an Internet gossipfest and I have recently discussed them again with Board representatives but are therefore not for such a trivial place as this
Your views fit excellently with a desire to move towards an open democratic environment, where everyone can have a say, and away from the old school smoked-filled-rooms style. I'm sure you've convinced everyone with your powerful arguments.
No doubt you think this self selecting gossipfest is democracy at work-it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed. I will be much more interest in hearing what ordinary membership paying ECF members have to say when they repsond by e-mail to the formal consulatation ratr than anything said here.
Why post here at all then, other than to be abusive to everybody that posts here?

Thing is Chris, you don't know my views, and I don't know yours, because you are not prepared to share them. I do know that this place is just a discussion forum, no more, but also no less, and I take it for what is. Its a place where people discuss English chess, and it gives a space for you to share your thoughts, if you so wish, with a certain cross-section (undoubtedly not typical) of the chess-loving population.

Chris Fegan
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Chris Fegan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:50 pm

PeterFarr wrote:
Chris Fegan wrote:
PeterFarr wrote:
Your views fit excellently with a desire to move towards an open democratic environment, where everyone can have a say, and away from the old school smoked-filled-rooms style. I'm sure you've convinced everyone with your powerful arguments.
No doubt you think this self selecting gossipfest is democracy at work-it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed. I will be much more interest in hearing what ordinary membership paying ECF members have to say when they repsond by e-mail to the formal consulatation ratr than anything said here.
Why post here at all then, other than to be abusive to everybody that posts here?
The only reason I initially posted was to respond to an attack on me by Michael Farthing which you have then continued, my normal policy is to avoid posting here unless I need to so respond. I have not been abusive to any individual but only(if anything at all) to the existence of the Forum itself and my views on it have been well known for many years and in my longstanding opinion it would be much better for the future of English chess if it was closed down.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:07 pm

Chris Fegan wrote:it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed.

Self appointed perhaps, but so are those who respond to circular emails. But ill informed? Extremely well informed I would have thought. That's not always thanks to various ECF Boards, who from time to time take action that doesn't stand up to public scrutiny. Consenting to being used by Kasparov in his legal battle with FIDE and then "forgetting" to mention the fact at not just one, but two consecutive Council meetings being a case in point.

If you want to establish a consensus about voting reform, why is having views expressed in public not a good thing?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:12 pm

Robert Stern wrote:The question of whether junior Direct Members should have voting rights is not addressed by the consultation paper
Elections for the posts of Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum Representatives are somewhere between infrequent and non-existent. But under the current constitution, do junior members, or their parents have a theoretical vote on the rare occasions when there's an election?

Chris Fegan
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Chris Fegan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:15 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Chris Fegan wrote:it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed.

Self appointed perhaps, but so are those who respond to circular emails. But ill informed? Extremely well informed I would have thought. That's not always thanks to various ECF Boards, who from time to time take action that doesn't stand up to public scrutiny. Consenting to being used by Kasparov in his legal battle with FIDE and then "forgetting" to mention the fact at not just one, but two consecutive Council meetings being a case in point.

If you want to establish a consensus about voting reform, why is having views expressed in public not a good thing?
Roger

Not at all well informed.

Most of the stuff posted on here is usually gossip, conjecture and rumour -facts are very rarely seen

PeterFarr
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by PeterFarr » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Chris Fegan wrote:it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed.

If you want to establish a consensus about voting reform, why is having views expressed in public not a good thing?
Indeed.

Speaking personally, and not that it matters, as one ECF member out of x thousand, but I might very well agree with Chris's views on omov if I knew more about what they were.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:32 pm

Chris Fegan wrote: Most of the stuff posted on here is usually gossip, conjecture and rumour -facts are very rarely seen
Examples please of gossip, conjecture and rumour then.

The Governance Committee have kick-started a debate by proposing three possible models. There are undoubtedly others and hybrids between them. The suggested structures aren't exclusive to chess given that other sports, pastimes and professional bodies solve the similar problems in different ways.

There's the version which most looks like the governance of a Company limited by shares or at the other extreme, a chess club. Namely that voting individuals elect the Directors and approve a limited number of AGM motions.

Moving on from that, you can have a body in the middle between the Board and the individuals. That's a Council or Electoral College. Two possible models were proposed for this. One is that all members of this Council are directly elected by the individuals who finance the ECF, the other is that only some are, with chess organisations taking the balance of voting rights.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:38 pm

PeterFarr wrote: Speaking personally, and not that it matters, as one ECF member out of x thousand, but I might very well agree with Chris's views on omov if I knew more about what they were.
I would guess that it's the elective dictatorship or monarchy model. You have, at least on paper, direct elections for Directors and a handful of AGM motions. In practice, unless you have two or more competing slates of potential candidates, there is no effective opposition to what a Board might chose to do.

PeterFarr
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by PeterFarr » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:19 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
PeterFarr wrote: Speaking personally, and not that it matters, as one ECF member out of x thousand, but I might very well agree with Chris's views on omov if I knew more about what they were.
I would guess that it's the elective dictatorship or monarchy model. You have, at least on paper, direct elections for Directors and a handful of AGM motions. In practice, unless you have two or more competing slates of potential candidates, there is no effective opposition to what a Board might chose to do.
I doubt that Chris would put it like that!

Personally I'd prefer something like an elected council as a check / balance on the executive; but I'm not clear on best way to do this.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:20 am

Chris Fegan wrote:
No doubt you think this self selecting gossipfest is democracy at work-it is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed. I will be much more interest in hearing what ordinary membership paying ECF members have to say when they repsond by e-mail to the formal consulatation ratr than anything said here.
Dare I point out that both the current CEO and the current Chairman of the Governance Committee have chosen to contribute to this thread? You also referred to an `attack` by Michael Farthing; as far as I can see Michael did not refer to anybody by name and there are more than a few individuals who have spoken in favour of OMOV over the years. I would also note that Michael (along with John Reyes and Angus French) is an elected representative of direct members. The system is less than perfect; Michael did not devise the system, he is working within it and I am sure that he will listen to direct members when deciding how to cast their votes.

For my part I will do my best to ensure that my club and county colleagues are aware of this consultation and will encourage them to make their views known.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:58 am

Sadly, of course, I am not actually an elected member as John and I were unopposed. That is another concern that I have: getting candidates.
[But thanks for your kind words, Andrew].

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:37 am

Chris Fegan wrote: [The ECForum] is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed.
@Carl - any chance of changing the masthead to this?

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:40 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Chris Fegan wrote: [The ECForum] is actually an ill informed talking shop of the self appointed.
@Carl - any chance of changing the masthead to this?
I don't think Toxic will ever be happy.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Chris Fegan
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Re: Possible Voting Reform

Post by Chris Fegan » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:45 am

PeterFarr wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
PeterFarr wrote: Speaking personally, and not that it matters, as one ECF member out of x thousand, but I might very well agree with Chris's views on omov if I knew more about what they were.
I would guess that it's the elective dictatorship or monarchy model. You have, at least on paper, direct elections for Directors and a handful of AGM motions. In practice, unless you have two or more competing slates of potential candidates, there is no effective opposition to what a Board might chose to do.
I doubt that Chris would put it like that!

Personally I'd prefer something like an elected council as a check / balance on the executive; but I'm not clear on best way to do this.
Peter

Indeed I would not.

However, the delicious and supreme irony of RDC claiming that this so called Forum is based on factual contributions rather than my view it is based on gossip, rumour and conjecture and asking me for examples to back my assertion and then RDC himself within minutes supplying a perfect example of gossip,rumour and conjecture by claiming he knows what "is in my head" re the Voting Reform Consultation and that he doesn't even see the link between the two is a classic even in competition with the rubbish that is often written on here.

QED

Best wishes

Chris

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