Game fee to be abolished?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:50 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:I've spotted something else, where the discussion paper is worded in an ambiguous manner.
Juniors
Junior Game Fee, at 60p per standard play game, was set ridiculously low. It is simply uneconomic to collect at this rate. Given the subsequent introduction of introductory free junior silver membership there is now no entry barrier to competitive junior chess. The Board therefore see no reason to modify the regulations for junior players, despite the apparent contrast of charging £15 for four games rather than £2.40 as at present.
Does "no reason to modify" mean that the present arrangements stay unchanged, or does it mean that the full adult rate will be charged?
Yes, the sentence,

"The Board therefore see no reason to modify the regulations for junior players, despite the apparent contrast of charging £15 for four games rather than £2.40 as at present."

is confusing. Does it mean the arrangements for junior players will remain as they currently are - i.e. with game fee charges remaining for junior-only events (as Mike T indicated would be the case, earlier in the thread)? Or does it mean the arrangements for juniors will be no different, in principle, to those proposed for others? I'm guessing the latter because I think that fits better with what's stated elsewhere... I assume the quoted £15 should be £11 (the current Junior Bronze membership rate). The Projected Income table (given in the appendix to the discussion paper) uses £11, not £15.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:08 pm

Unless I've missed something, there's one area inadequately covered by these proposals. The proposals appear to assume that all club chess is played in leagues (where more than 3 games by an ECF non-member would incur a £25 charge) but to take no account of games played in internal events such as club championships. To be consistent, the proposals might have said that more than 3 games in internal events occur the same £25 charge, but incurred by clubs rather than leagues, but they don't - far less go into any detail such as whether different club events would be combined or treated separately for the purpose etc.

Mike Truran
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:31 pm

There are lots of good points being raised, but as I said earlier Dave Thomas isn't a visitor here. People may well be contacting him directly as well as posting here, but if they aren't could I urge them please to do so?

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:51 pm

Mike Truran wrote:There are lots of good points being raised, but as I said earlier Dave Thomas isn't a visitor here. People may well be contacting him directly as well as posting here, but if they aren't could I urge them please to do so?
Does he even have email yet?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote: Does he even have email yet?
director.membership@englishchess.org.uk unless I'm much mistaken

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:00 am

Roger Lancaster wrote: To be consistent, the proposals might have said that more than 3 games in internal events occur the same £25 charge, but incurred by clubs rather than leagues, but they don't - far less go into any detail such as whether different club events would be combined or treated separately for the purpose etc.
Clubs aren't usually members of the ECF in the way that Leagues and Counties are, so that may make a difference. The practical administration of grading will name club internal events as being submitted without going into detail as to who gets any bill for the participation of non-members.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:06 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:The practical administration of grading will name club internal events as being submitted without going into detail as to who gets any bill for the participation of non-members.
What makes you think the current requirement to supply a Treasurer's name and address with results submitted for grading is going to change?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:18 am

Ian Thompson wrote: What makes you think the current requirement to supply a Treasurer's name and address with results submitted for grading is going to change?
Perhaps you could clarify the current process? If a club in the Border League wants to submit its internal results for grading, that presumably goes through the Border League grader? If so, whose name is on the submission?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:35 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Perhaps you could clarify the current process? If a club in the Border League wants to submit its internal results for grading, that presumably goes through the Border League grader?
No. It could be done by any grader. For example, the Guildford internal club results used to be done by the the Border League grader, but that stopped a few years ago when the Border League grader decided he no longer wished to contribute, in a small way, to the running of the club. Conversely, the Godalming internal club results used to be done by the Border League grader, but that changed when the grader stood down from grading the Border League while continuing to grade Godalming's events.
Roger de Coverly wrote:If so, whose name is on the submission?
The submission contains two names:
1. The grader
2. The Treasurer. For club results that is the name of the club's Treasurer for every submission I've ever made.

Nick Grey
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:36 am

No it doesn't. Border League.
I have graded other clubs tournaments (internal) and made clear I could not put through the Leagues submission. The reason is specifically it says in instructions for grading.
So we are asked to put the treasurers details on who will receive any invoice - also works when you grade friendly matches. The treasurer then can sort out which club incurs which fees.
It is also why graders are told not to worry about the administration of fee invoices.
Either way the proposals suggest less administration not more unless there are a whole lot of games being submitted.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:40 am

Nick Grey wrote: It is also why graders are told not to worry about the administration of fee invoices.
It will matter somewhat more if any organisation, whether a club, county or league submitting more than three games for a non-member is going to be hit by a penalty charge.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:28 pm

Angus French wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:My main concern with the proposals is that there is no distinction between rapidplay and standard play. Various county leagues have some divisions of two rapidplay games in an evening instead of one long play game. Examples include Berkshire Division Four, Surrey Stoneleigh Trophy and Briant Poulter (Surrey Schools) Div 4 and 5. If someone plays in just two such rapidplay fixtures then they play 4 (rapidplay) games and will be subject to the membership charge. However, if they play standard play then it is only on their fourth fixture that this is applied. It would be sensible, therefore, if a single rapidplay game counted as half a standard play game, as is at present the place with game fee. Then the charge would apply on the fourth fixture, whether in a rapidplay or standard play league.
My club runs two internal rapidplay events a year. Both are six rounds and held over two consecutive club nights. Both used to be graded and, to encourage new players, the club would provide a subsidised entry fee for ECF non-members. When the rapidplay game fee went up from £1 to £1.25 we stopped grading one of the tournaments (and it became more popular). If the new proposal is implemented we'll have a choice: either to stop grading the second tournament also or to make it less attractive to ECF non-members (because any subsidy we provide probably wouldn't be meaningful in the context of a £11/15 Bronze membership fee) - and put up with a lower number of entries.
The Agenda for the Finance Council Meeting on 22 April includes the following:
Finance Council Agenda wrote:6. To consider the recommendation of the Membership Director and the Board that Bye Law No. 2 is replaced by the new version supplied. *
Note: the effect of the change is to allow non members of the ECF to play up to 3 games free of charge in any league but the following fees
will be charged when 4 or more games are played:

(a) £25 for an adult
(b) £12 for a junior

(Rapidplay games count 0.5 when determining the number of games played.)
I note "3 games free of charge in any league" and "Rapidplay games count 0.5 when determining the number of games played" and wonder: Would six free games be allowed in rapidplay leagues but not in other rapidplay events?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:55 pm

Angus French wrote: Would six free games be allowed in rapidplay leagues but not in other rapidplay events?
That would seem to be the intention. That's not any different from standard play where if you ran a three round Congress or had a player withdraw after three rounds, the ECF would still want a "pay to play" fee.

It's still a price hike for Junior events for those players outside the scope of ECF introductory offers.

Angus French
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:18 pm

I was particularly interested in internal club rapidplay events (which aren't really congresses).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Game fee to be abolished?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:21 pm

Angus French wrote:I was particularly interested in internal club rapidplay events (which aren't really congresses).
Haven't they always been treated as club championships? But then what are the rules for rapidplay club championships?

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