ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun May 28, 2017 7:13 pm

Gerry_Jepps wrote:So to take an unlikely but not entirely impossible scenario: If a player for (say) Bath plays 4 games in his club tournament, 4 games in the Somerset League and 4 games in the Bristol League, all without taking out membership, his club will be billed 3 x £15 = £45 (one bill of £15 direct from the ECF and two bills via the leagues). Is that right?
That would seem to be the consequences of the ECF's decisions. If however you can restrict him to three games in each competition, the bill is £ nil.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun May 28, 2017 7:25 pm

I don't think Roger can say that. At the very least I suspect the club would be able to negotiate. The point of the decision was that identifying (say) 2 games for Bristol league and 2 games for Somerset and then deciding how to split the £15 between the leagues is a lot of tedious work. Gerry's possibility I don't think occurred to anyone in the meeting at the time - given the vote to reduce the fee from £25 to bronze membership I don't think delegates would have wanted a triple bill and I suspect the Board will not try to exact one.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun May 28, 2017 9:31 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:I don't think delegates would have wanted a triple bill and I suspect the Board will not try to exact one.
I thought the attitude of the Board was that it didn't intend the ECF Office to cross check by league who had played where and when. The triple scenario seems entirely feasible. Club secretaries and treasurers can use the ECF grading records, assuming the data has been loaded, to check the number of games played by players for whom they might expect to receive a bill.

Ian Thompson
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun May 28, 2017 10:27 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Gerry's possibility I don't think occurred to anyone in the meeting at the time
That doesn't say much for the abilities of delegates. Perhaps they should read this forum before attending meetings then. I'm pretty sure the point was raised here.
Michael Farthing wrote:given the vote to reduce the fee from £25 to bronze membership I don't think delegates would have wanted a triple bill and I suspect the Board will not try to exact one.
One of the major benefits cited for calculating on a per league basis was simplicity. You don't need to know what games a player has played outside your own league. The ECF doesn't need to apportion charges across more than one league. I don't think there's any doubt at all that the Board were aware of this consequence and intend to bill every league. As that's what's been approved at the meeting they don't now have any choice.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun May 28, 2017 11:08 pm

The possibility was mentioned at the meeting and each league that has a non member playing more than the allowed games will be charged by the ECF.

It's up to the player, their club or the league to make sure that they are a paid up member before the end of June.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon May 29, 2017 6:26 am

Gareth T Ellis wrote:The possibility was mentioned at the meeting and each league that has a non member playing more than the allowed games will be charged by the ECF.

It's up to the player, their club or the league to make sure that they are a paid up member before the end of June.
I stand corrected - clearly another instance of my nodding off - though I do remember the comment now.
I also understand that the Board will seek to enforce it.
Ah well! There will be some very annoyed club treasurers. How to win friends and influence people!
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Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Tue May 30, 2017 8:44 pm

Gerry_Jepps wrote:So to take an unlikely but not entirely impossible scenario: If a player for (say) Bath plays 4 games in his club tournament, 4 games in the Somerset League and 4 games in the Bristol League, all without taking out membership, his club will be billed 3 x £15 = £45 (one bill of £15 direct from the ECF and two bills via the leagues). Is that right?
While the description of the proposal in the agenda document was perhaps not as clear as it could have been, the accompanying paper did state:
Paper on the Abolition of Game Fee wrote:Players in Multiple Leagues

Approximately a quarter of non-members analysed have played in multiple events. If Leagues are to be made responsible for the membership payment then the liability cannot depend on circumstances outside their knowledge or control. Therefore it will be essential to allow players three free games in each league in which they play. However, only 270 players (less than 10% of non-members) have played more than three games in more than one event. The double-charging of these players is not regarded as a serious objection to the scheme.

John Reyes
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by John Reyes » Wed May 31, 2017 5:21 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Gareth T Ellis wrote:The possibility was mentioned at the meeting and each league that has a non member playing more than the allowed games will be charged by the ECF.

It's up to the player, their club or the league to make sure that they are a paid up member before the end of June.
I stand corrected - clearly another instance of my nodding off - though I do remember the comment now.
I also understand that the Board will seek to enforce it.
Ah well! There will be some very annoyed club treasurers. How to win friends and influence people!

The reason I said that is in one of our league, the ECF rep of one of the league that I play in and never turn up to the Fixture meeting, mention this

"New players could play up to three games in any League before they would need to pay a membership fee. John Reyes said this was not correct, it was three games in any number of games (should have been league)" (the reason I said this is that, myself i play in other leagues and that in theory, I could play 3 game in the Manchester league, and 3 in the Stockport league, plus also 3 in the Warrington league and 3 in the Stockport RP league and I will pay the grand sum of Nothing"

My understand is that you can play up to 3 games or 6 RP league Games, and that after the 4th game, you need to be an member of the ECF, or the league/club will be charge an one off fee of the Bronze membership fee, that was my understand of it, can you please confirmed I was right?
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Angus French
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Angus French » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:58 pm

John Reyes wrote:My understand is that you can play up to 3 games or 6 RP league Games, and that after the 4th game, you need to be an member of the ECF, or the league/club will be charge an one off fee of the Bronze membership fee, that was my understand of it, can you please confirmed I was right?
John, I believe your understanding is correct but the allowance is for 7 (not 6) rapidplay games in an event.

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:43 pm

Angus French wrote:
John Reyes wrote:My understand is that you can play up to 3 games or 6 RP league Games, and that after the 4th game, you need to be an member of the ECF, or the league/club will be charge an one off fee of the Bronze membership fee, that was my understand of it, can you please confirmed I was right?
John, I believe your understanding is correct but the allowance is for 7 (not 6) rapidplay games in an event.
That is encouraging, if true. That suggests that that rapidplay competitions of 7 rounds or less will graded without charge regardless of whether players have ECF membership.

So, all Megafinals in Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge can be ECF graded without charge. I suspect that the Gigafinals and Terrafinal will attract grading fees since they are the further rounds of the same competition.

Are the ECF Board aware of what they have done and is it what they intended?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:03 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Angus French wrote:
John Reyes wrote:My understand is that you can play up to 3 games or 6 RP league Games, and that after the 4th game, you need to be an member of the ECF, or the league/club will be charge an one off fee of the Bronze membership fee, that was my understand of it, can you please confirmed I was right?
John, I believe your understanding is correct but the allowance is for 7 (not 6) rapidplay games in an event.
That is encouraging, if true. That suggests that that rapidplay competitions of 7 rounds or less will graded without charge regardless of whether players have ECF membership.

So, all Megafinals in Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge can be ECF graded without charge. I suspect that the Gigafinals and Terrafinal will attract grading fees since they are the further rounds of the same competition.

Are the ECF Board aware of what they have done and is it what they intended?
If I understand it, this only applies to Bronze-level events. Which the schools stage of the UKSCC certainly would be, and the Gigafinals and Terafinal wouldn't; the Megafinals are a marginal case.

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:22 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: If I understand it, this only applies to Bronze-level events. Which the schools stage of the UKSCC certainly would be, and the Gigafinals and Terafinal wouldn't; the Megafinals are a marginal case.
It sounded too good to be true.

So, most likely Juniors will need to be Silver members.

Why is it that leagues are afforded special treatment with regard to grading fees in comparison with other types of tournament?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:29 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Why is it that leagues are afforded special treatment with regard to grading fees in comparison with other types of tournament?
Demanding that players become members of a national body for an annual cost has the problem that you can end up trying to make a charge at an annual level for a single game. Rather than admit that the whole concept of membership paid for at a single individual rate for all players is deeply flawed, the ECF ties itself in knots trying to make it work. It's leagues that are the most likely to have players playing just the handful of games. As far as Congresses are concerned, it's only one round fillers that have to be accommodated.

Jaimie Wilson
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by Jaimie Wilson » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:32 pm

Phew, it's beginning to get expensive! It looks like the Scots pay an annual flat membership fee of £22. :wink:

John Reyes
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Re: ECF Finance Council Meeting April 2017

Post by John Reyes » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:06 pm

Any news on the Minutes yet?
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