Motions

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Motions

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:51 pm

Firstly regarding the posts by Michael Flatt, the dispute as to whether the NCCU should admit Manchester as a competing county in its own right has been dragging on for forty three years now. Some searching will reveal a lengthy previous thread on this forum devoted to the subject. That is where the bale of legal documents come in and, if the rumours are true, there is a substantial legacy that can be spent on litigation if Manchester were ever admitted. If there was an easy solution it would have been found by now. The last time the NCCU voted on whether to admit Manchester was in 2014 where the vote was lost (I believe) by 3 votes to 4 with 4 abstentions.

In terms of county championships eligibility Lancs/ Greater Manchester may be a special case and you could introduce a special clause in the rules to cover it. However as Michael Farthing said earlier in the thread, there is something slightly unethical about a rule designed to cover a specific county. Even worse, if it goes before Council for a vote, you would be allowing the other competing counties in the Open (Surrey, Middlesex, Kent and Yorkshire) an opportunity to hobble one of their rivals. It seems a very dangerous precedent.

Manchester may feel they have documents that back up their case. Lancashire would probably dispute that with documents of their own and they have a right to argue their case. Alex may well have been sent papers a month ago. A good proportion of his time since has almost certainly been spent preparing for Llandudno and then working twelve hour unpaid days while that event was in progress. He may well want to take further advice before he replies. It may well be a case where the Governance committee ultimately have to be involved.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Motions

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:55 pm

Greater Manchester were champions in 2004 and 2005 having previously won in 1990. Lancashire subsequently won in 2007 and three further victories since, including this year, but prior to that hadn't won since 1978.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Motions

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:17 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
It makes no sense to question the eligibility of players of another county's team unless your own team is disadvantaged by not having those players available to your own county's team in the same competition.
Err, well actually it decidedly does make sense to me!
Depersonalising the discussion, let us suppose that the county of Barset pays a handsome fee and the air fare, paid for by its wealthy patron the Duke of Omnium, to a certain Magnus Carlsen to travel from Scandinavia to play in a match.

This particular chap is not (as far as I'm aware) available to play for any other county but to my mind every team in the competition would be very disadvantaged if that behaviour were allowed. In addition, Barset (rather than the officials of its association) would also be disadvantaged as a result of the displacement of its legitimate players (in the same way, of course, that my position has already been threatened by the possibility of similar action by your good self :-). I'll add a second :-) to show I really am taking this flippant threat in proper measure )

We're a long way from it happening, but I would not like to see the county teams become like Wood Green, so concerned to win a trophy that their real players become excluded. But we're not at that stage and I take Mike Gunn's point that the rules should be relatively relaxed and depend on the good sportsmanship of the competitors. It's all made worse in this case by a long existing underlying quarrel.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2330
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Motions

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:34 pm

If anyone wanted to do that right now it'd be trivial - "Two months’ immediate previous and present membership of a club either in or affiliated to that County.".

Doesn't even need any money (besides the air fares etc !).

Mick Norris
Posts: 6508
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Motions

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:21 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:Firstly regarding the posts by Michael Flatt, the dispute as to whether the NCCU should admit Manchester as a competing county in its own right has been dragging on for forty three years now. Some searching will reveal a lengthy previous thread on this forum devoted to the subject. That is where the bale of legal documents come in and, if the rumours are true, there is a substantial legacy that can be spent on litigation if Manchester were ever admitted
Hi Andrew, is there any actual evidence of this alleged fund? The Will is presumably a matter of public record, so someone can check

Anyway, if the threat was to sue the NCCU, that is nothing to do with the ECF correctly enforcing eligibility rules in an ECF competition; I haven't seen evidence that the ECF was in the right
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

NickFaulks
Posts: 3493
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Motions

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:59 pm

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but why aren't there Merseyside teams in the County Championships?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16110
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Motions

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:03 pm

NickFaulks wrote:I'm probably going to regret asking this, but why aren't there Merseyside teams in the County Championships?
There have been and there could be. Presumably the usual story of a shortage of willing players and organisers. 4NCL North is competing for the attention of players although the absence of Merseyside and most of the NCCU counties pre-dates this.

NickFaulks
Posts: 3493
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Motions

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:14 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:There have been and there could be.
Thanks, for some reason that's more straightforward than I expected. I assume that Merseyside players simply play for Lancashire instead.

Next question, West Midlands. They're a perfectly good county, have they ever put out teams?

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 4301
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Motions

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:28 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:There have been and there could be.
Thanks, for some reason that's more straightforward than I expected. I assume that Merseyside players simply play for Lancashire instead.

Next question, West Midlands. They're a perfectly good county, have they ever put out teams?
Not that I know of, players continued to play for Staffs, Warwickshire etc

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Motions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:26 pm

NickFaulks wrote:Next question, West Midlands. They're a perfectly good county, have they ever put out teams?
No, they are not, in the present context.

The ECF Counties Championships are open to County Chess Associations which are ECF members, defined in the ECF Memorandum and Articles as follows:

"“County Associations” being such chess organisations representative of chess within statutory or otherwise customarily accepted county areas as shall be admitted by the Council to membership under this Article 5(2)."

Lancashire, Merseyside and Greater Manchester have all been admitted to membership.

There is no such organisation as West Midlands County Chess Association, or, if there is, it has not been admitted to membership of the ECF.

NickFaulks
Posts: 3493
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Motions

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:18 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:Lancashire, Merseyside and Greater Manchester have all been admitted to membership.
Are they the same thing as the Manchester Chess Federation?

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Motions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:36 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:Lancashire, Merseyside and Greater Manchester have all been admitted to membership.
Are they the same thing as the Manchester Chess Federation?

The Manchester Chess Federation was formed by the merger of the Manchester & District Chess Association, a Constituent Unit of the ECF under Article 5(1), and the Greater Manchester County Chess Association, a County Association member of the ECF under Article 5(2).

It would need someone more knowledgeable than I to explain the effects of an organisation having acquired membership twice, under different Articles.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2330
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Motions

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:58 pm

Back when Lancs/Marseyside/GM split apart there were, I believe, enough players in each county to field teams. GM still do in theory, but only if 3C's are interested like the two years they won it. Merseyside just too small now I'd think.

Competing with a unified Yorkshire the southern counties is perhaps another matter.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16110
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Motions

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Back in 1974, it was only in the NCCU area that ambitious leagues sought County status. So you had the Liverpool league and the Teesside league, both of which were accepted by the NCCU as counties and the Manchester league which wasn't.

Plausibly similar leagues in Bristol, Birmingham and London weren't interested and maintained the existing structures for county eligibility with only minor changes, if at all.

Reg Clucas
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:45 pm

Re: Motions

Post by Reg Clucas » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:47 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Back when Lancs/Marseyside/GM split apart there were, I believe, enough players in each county to field teams.
Cheshire also were affected by the creation of Merseyside & GM. The Cheshire county team was one of the first casualties.

Post Reply