DGT/FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highly reduced rate

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
NickFaulks
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:40 am

Paul McKeown wrote:And, of course, everyone enjoys a good deal in the short-term, but monopolies don't exist to give markets a good deal in the long-term.
It seems to me that DGT's move is a major market disruption and, if it is not somehow derailed, will ensure that the cost of digital chess clocks in the UK will never return to their bloated 2017 levels.

Alan Walton
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:42 am

You could argue that the perceived current monopoly/domination of DGT is purely down to the lack of quality of the alternatives

DGT have developed (and continuing to develop) a whole suite of equipment to transmit live games; I suspect the alternative digital clocks providers haven't invested in this technology and try and make their own equipment compatible to the DGT equipment (and seemed to have failed significantly); here straight away it is obvious why DGT have this strong position

Alot of industries throughout Europe and the World have situations of near monopoly status, and normally not alot is done to rectify this; if it is only DGT investing in digital transmission and compatible equipment then why put any blockers on this just because of people's objections on monopoly status

DGT want more chess out on the Internet to widen any popularity this has to be welcomed, and any side effects have to be accepted

Paul McKeown
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:56 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:And, of course, everyone enjoys a good deal in the short-term, but monopolies don't exist to give markets a good deal in the long-term.
It seems to me that DGT's move is a major market disruption and, if it is not somehow derailed, will ensure that the cost of digital chess clocks in the UK will never return to their bloated 2017 levels.
Possibly - and I don't imagine that heretofore list prices for digital clocks are at all related to their production and distribution costs. However, a 70% drop in price is a market capture, rather than a normal business move.

I would re-iterate, though, that the market and supply chain doesn't just concern manufacturers of clocks. There are many traders who may be damaged by this. If they can't make money from selling clocks (and indeed may have to take a significant loss on stock currently held), will the saving that chess players have made in clocks be spent on a pent up demand for books, sets and trophies? You may simply say, "cry me a river," in which case you may be right.

Paul McKeown
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:04 am

Alan Walton wrote:You could argue that the perceived current monopoly/domination of DGT is purely down to the lack of quality of the alternatives

DGT have developed (and continuing to develop) a whole suite of equipment to transmit live games; I suspect the alternative digital clocks providers haven't invested in this technology and try and make their own equipment compatible to the DGT equipment (and seemed to have failed significantly); here straight away it is obvious why DGT have this strong position
Certainly this is true. One might argue that there is no market mechanism if no one is interested in seriously competing.
Alan Walton wrote:Alot of industries throughout Europe and the World have situations of near monopoly status, and normally not alot is done to rectify this;
That is a statement that you would have to work hard to justify. In market economies, anti-cartel intervention is generally strong.
Alan Walton wrote:any side effects have to be accepted
"Just give me the damned clocks."

Angus French
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Angus French » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:49 am

I wonder how much DGT2010s and 3000s cost to manufacturer. I suspect it's a fraction of what they currently sell for.

An interesting design/coding project would be to create a clock based on a Raspberry Pi Zero or some such. Maybe an inexpensive kit could be developed...

John Reyes
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by John Reyes » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:04 pm

I have to agreed with Alan here, that we need to be looking at for the 4ncl and big british events to used the DGT 3000

we don't wanted to be behind the other European countries with chess
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Paul Cooksey
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:37 pm

I used to work in Consumer Electronics - in a typical lifecycle the product starts as a low volume, high cost good while it recoups its research and development costs and then becomes a high volume, low cost product once it becomes commoditised.

I'm more inclined to believe that is happening to chess clocks, than selfless charity or anti-competitive behaviour. Of course there is a fine line between changing your pricing because the market has changed, and changing your pricing to suppress new entrants to the market.

I'm giving DGT the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proved guilty, etc. But "Just give me the damned clocks." applies to me too.

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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:07 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:I used to work in Consumer Electronics - in a typical lifecycle the product starts as a low volume, high cost good while it recoups its research and development costs and then becomes a high volume, low cost product once it becomes commoditised.

I'm more inclined to believe that is happening to chess clocks, than selfless charity or anti-competitive behaviour. Of course there is a fine line between changing your pricing because the market has changed, and changing your pricing to suppress new entrants to the market.
Thanks, an interesting perspective.
Paul Cooksey wrote:I'm giving DGT the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proved guilty, etc. But "Just give me the damned clocks." applies to me too.
And us too. Richmond Juniors can currently only afford ten DGT 3000 clocks, sadly, even at this new enormously discounted price. We purchased a further forty DGT Easy Plus clocks a month ago, which leaves us nothing left in our capital budget for the term. The timing is very inconvenient for us. All told we have purchased one hundred DGT Easy Plus clocks in the past four years - which makes Alan's joke about Luddites smashing digital clocks fall flat.
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NickFaulks
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:20 pm

Paul McKeown wrote: which makes Alan's joke about Luddites smashing digital clocks fall flat.
I didn't get the impression that he was talking about you. Some leagues are still believed to be buying new analogue clocks.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:22 pm

John Reyes wrote:I have to agreed with Alan here, that we need to be looking at for the 4ncl and big british events to used the DGT 3000
They all went digital years ago. There's not a lot to choose between the DGT2010 and DGT3000 other than the display of seconds throughout the game.

It's Congresses, Leagues and other events who don't use increments who are the targets here. Most smartphones have a chess clock app available to them. When I last investigated, they only supported the simpler forms of time control. You could do all moves in 90 minutes with 30 second increments, but not 40 in 90 followed by an extra 30 with or without increment.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Another significant difference is that the 3000 tells you which session you are in. I consider that a big plus.

NickFaulks
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:52 pm

For the benefit of newcomers to this thread, the title still talks about a "FIDE offer", which is utterly untrue and might be considered libellous.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:17 pm

NickFaulks wrote:For the benefit of newcomers to this thread, the title still talks about a "FIDE offer", which is utterly untrue and might be considered libellous.
To be fair, going from what is said in the ECF link here (from the second post in this thread):

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/new-dgt-clocks/
All purchases need to be agreed by FIDE [...] I have written to them asking for further information, and for their consent [...] expressions of interest should be serious, so that I can progress with DGT and FIDE. Once any final agreement is in place, I will write again to those who reply, to agree numbers and an exact price.
A better title might be "DGT and FIDE offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highly reduced rate"

I wonder how many chess clubs will be organised enough to reply by Monday?

(If the title is changed, maybe correct the typo in 'highy" [sic] as well?)

NickFaulks
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:44 pm

I heard no suggestion in Antalya that purchases needed to be agreed with FIDE. I wonder where that came from.

Everyone there seemed quite stunned by DGT's announcement.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: FIDE Offer to Federations to purchase clocks at a highy reduced rate

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:29 pm

At less than half the best price that UK Suppliers can purchase at in volume, it's going to be interesting how much the UK suppliers deal with DGT products in future not knowing which of their products will next be on offer.

Most of the clocks sold in the UK are to individuals & schools, so they won't even be aware of the offer, but they do deal with the small local dealers that buy from the larger ones that are about to have part of their stock greatly devalued.

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