Membership requirements for British Championship events

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am

There's a thread which has been diverted into a discussion of ambiguities on the membership requirements for players who aren't ENG, SCO, WLS, IRL, JCI or GCI but who are eligible for British titles by virtue of birth, nationality or residence.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9436&start=45

There's a German IM resident in the Isle of Man who regularly competes in the British Championship without being an ECF member. Against that there was a junior player with a Slovakian FIN resident in the UK for several years who appears to have been denied entry to the British allegedly because she wasn't an ECF Gold member.

I don't know where students fit into this, Hou Yifan will be coming to Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar in October 2018. That wouldn't complete a year of residence by July 2019, but what of July 2020?

(edit) Hou Yifan (/edit)
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter Shaw
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:22 pm
Location: Wakefield

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Peter Shaw » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am
I don't know where students fit into this, Xie Jun will be coming to Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar in October 2018. That wouldn't complete a year of residence by July 2019, but what of July 2020?
I think you mean Hou Yifan!

David Sedgwick
Posts: 5249
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon
Contact:

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:11 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:47 am
There's a German IM resident in the Isle of Man who regularly competes in the British Championship without being an ECF member. Against that there was a junior player with a Slovakian FIN resident in the UK for several years who appears to have been denied entry to the British allegedly because she wasn't an ECF Gold member.
I have a recollection that it was agreed ten to twelve years ago that membership of any member of the British Isles Coordinating Committee would suffice for those resident in the relevant territory.

If that is correct, a player resident in the Isle of Man or in Northern Ireland who was a member of the Isle of Man Chess Association or of the Ulster Chess Union respectively would not also need to be a member of the ECF or of the Irish Chess Union respectively

Edit: I have now seen that Mike Truran has said much the same in the other thread.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:43 pm

The only perceivable difference in the benefits to ECF members at Silver and Gold rates is that with Gold level the ECF will obtain a FIN with ENG nationality that will permits players to play in FIDE rated events.

Foreign nationals have obtain a FIN through their own national federation (since the ECF have no authority to do so on their behalf); thus, they gain no benefit from taking out ECF membership higher than Silver.

For Congresses in England other than the British Chess Championship a foreign national is levied £1.50 for each FIDE rated event they enter.

As Roger has already asked: What is the justification for grading/rating regulations at the British Championship being different from other FIDE-rated events held in England?

If the foreign national does take out ECF Gold membership would the £1.50 (per event) grading fee be waived?
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membership/membership-benefits/ wrote: Membership Benefits

The many benefits of ECF membership include reduced entry fees to some congresses; the ECF Yearbook; discounts from chess retailers; click here for the benefits offered by Tradewise Insurance. This is your opportunity to support the English Chess Federation in developing chess activities for all regardless of sex, age and ability. Use these descriptions to decide which membership category suits your chess playing —
BRONZE members
Free grading of results in Club competitions, Leagues, County championships
ECF Yearbook – discounted price (£13.50); Eligibility for ECF Master Points Scheme
SILVER members
Free grading of results in Club competitions, Leagues, County championships, Congresses (excl. FIDE-rated)
ECF Yearbook – discounted price (£13.50); Eligibility for ECF Master Points Scheme; Eligibility for inclusion in the ECF Grand Prix
GOLD members
Free grading of results in Club competitions, Leagues, County championships, Congresses, FIDE-rated events
ECF Yearbook – discounted price (£13.50); Eligibility for ECF Master Points Scheme; Eligibility for inclusion in the ECF Grand Prix
PLATINUM members
Free grading of results in Club competitions, Leagues, County championships, Congresses, FIDE-rated events
ECF Yearbook – free; Eligibility for ECF Master Points Scheme; Eligibility for inclusion in the ECF Grand Prix
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membership/info/fide-rated-events/ wrote: REGISTRATION OF PLAYERS

All players in a FIDE-rated event should be registered with FIDE prior to the event. If this is impossible is a particular case the Federation is able to register the player as English on receipt of the rating file.

Please note that the ECF is only able to register players with FIDE as English; should a player wish to register through a foreign federation this can only be done by contacting that federation and complying with their requirements.

STANDARD PLAY EVENTS

Swiss system congress and Internal Club competitions
Gold or Platinum ECF members are free charge;
A Play to Play fee for the event of £10 per player (adult or junior) is playable in respect of ECF Bronze or Silver members or non-members who are registered with FIDE as English;
Players registered for FIDE rating purposes with a federation other than England a rating fee (currently £1.50) will be charged per player per event.
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membership/info/graded-congresses/ wrote:Graded Congresses

Prices in this document relate to both the 2015-16 and 2016-17 seasons.

NB. The following guidance applies to graded congresses open to adults and juniors alike. See the note at the end of this section for guidance on Junior-only events.

The ECF will charge the event a Pay to Play fee of £7 for each adult congress participant (£5 for juniors) who is not an ECF member or who is an ECF member at Bronze level only. There is no charge at all for ECF members at Silver, Gold or Platinum level

The £7 (£5 for juniors) fee is the same regardless of the number of rounds in the event and of the rate of play (i.e. it is the same for Standard Play and Rapid Play).

It is recommended that the entry fee for participants be set at a level to cover the £7 (£5 for juniors) Pay to Play fee, but with a discount available for ECF members at Silver, Gold or Platinum level.

A suggested form of words for the entry form is as follows, but organisers may of course vary this as they see fit:

This is a registered ECF Game Fee event. Players who are current ECF Members at Silver, Gold or Platinum level on the date of the congress may deduct £[7] (£[5] for Juniors) from their entry fee.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:43 pm
For Congresses in England other than the British Chess Championship a foreign national is levied £1.50 for each FIDE rated event they enter.
I don't think that's correct. It's FIDE who levy the ECF £ 1.50 per player per event (or something equivalent in Euros). The ECF doesn't recoup this from individual Congresses and leagues for ECF Gold members. Whether it bothers for the small sums a weekend Congress would generate I don't know, but I'm not aware of any Congress which puts a £ 1.50 surcharge on entrants who are not ENG but are otherwise registered with FIDE.

The Hastings entry form is an example
http://www.hastingschess.com/wp-content ... Andrew.pdf
or one of the 4NCL Congresses
http://www.4ncl.co.uk/fide/download/4nc ... form17.pdf

To enter the Hastings Masters requires an extra £ 10.50 for ENG players who aren't Gold or Platinum. As regards non-ENG it just says
Non-English entrants are required to have a FIDE identification number. If they do not, they must obtain one in advance from their International Rating Officer.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:41 pm

The £1.50 charge is specified by the ECF in the documents I indentified on the ECF website.

The information on ECF membership & grading fees is scattered in a number of documents which may or may not be kept up to date.

Anyone encountering the ECF membership scheme for the first time is bound to become confused, especially when it comes to the undocumented 'customs and practice' which came to light in the sister thread on the forum!

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:20 pm

ECF quoted by Michael Flatt wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:43 pm
Players registered for FIDE rating purposes with a federation other than England a rating fee (currently £1.50) will be charged per player per event.

The English is somewhat ambiguous, but as the ECF is not known for billing visiting foreign players £ 1.50, the charge per player per event is made by the ECF to the Congress (assuming it bothers). A former CEO cited the waiver of this charge for Gold members as a membership benefit, which is tenuous as it is and remains a Congress expense like hiring a room, equipment and arbiters.

NickFaulks
Posts: 8453
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:36 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm
I don't think that's correct. It's FIDE who levy the ECF £ 1.50 per player per event (or something equivalent in Euros).
The fee is 1 euro per player. An important profit centre for many federations is the taking of money from their own players on the basis of lesser or non-existent FIDE fees.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Nick Grey
Posts: 1838
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:05 pm

Michael the British is Fide rated - hence SILVER not applicable & need gold to grade. Unless Non-English but need Fide in advance. Not sure why you are trying to over complicate matters.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:05 pm
Not sure why you are trying to over complicate matters.
It's the ECF who are trying to overcomplicate by demanding that players who are not ENG, WLS, IRL, SCO, GCI, JCI or are associated with the Isle of Man should be ECF Gold members if they are resident in England.

I'm not sure what they would ask of ex-champion Joe Gallagher who is now SUI for FIDE purposes should he want to enter the championship. Tony Kosten too, as he's FRA and has played at least once in recent years. Neither live in the UK.

User avatar
David Shepherd
Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:46 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:45 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm
It's the ECF who are trying to overcomplicate by demanding that players who are not ENG, WLS, IRL, SCO, GCI, JCI or are associated with the Isle of Man should be ECF Gold members if they are resident in England.
However to be fair, you could argued that by allowing non British registered players to play in the National Championships, they are being generous and it doesn't seem unfair to me to require that where players qualify by being resident in a country, then they should in return show at least some support for the national federations by being a member of that federation if they run a membership scheme (assuming they want to play in the National Championship).

What is not acceptable is to have unclear or unwritten rules.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:03 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:45 pm
What is not acceptable is to have unclear or unwritten rules.
I would be inclined to agree with that. It's the statement that "you have to be a member of your National federation" that's ambiguous simply because it's by no means universal that countries run membership schemes on the English or USA model. It's perhaps at least as common that the local chess club or regional organisation is the member of the national federation and individual players are merely either club members or just registered through the local body.

I think the ECF has now dropped the vindictiveness, but for a while it took the stance that if you were ENG and played in a FIDE rated event anywhere in the world being an ECF Gold member, it would treat you as if you were a computer cheat and remove your rating. This obviously affects ex-pat players who might need to be a member of a local club or regional organisation but otherwise had no reason to pay an annual fee to the ECF.

Brian Towers
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm
It's the ECF who are trying to overcomplicate by demanding that players who are not ENG, WLS, IRL, SCO, GCI, JCI or are associated with the Isle of Man should be ECF Gold members if they are resident in England.

I'm not sure what they would ask of ex-champion Joe Gallagher who is now SUI for FIDE purposes should he want to enter the championship. Tony Kosten too, as he's FRA and has played at least once in recent years. Neither live in the UK.
I think you are overlooking the obvious. Gallagher and Kosten are both GMs. Nowadays there is enough money to offer "conditions" to GMs. It makes no sense to offer conditions and then say, "Oh, by the way, could you bung us a tenner to upgrade your ECF membership?"
Last edited by Brian Towers on Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm
It makes no sense to offer conditions and then say, "Oh, by the way, could you bung us a tenner to upgrade your ECF membership?"
When have the ECF and sense ever gone together? At least one IM and former British champion had his FIDE rating suspended for the crime of playing in the 4NCL whilst a Bronze member.

If, as alleged, the Indian Federation awarded new GMs a house, arguably the ECF could stretch to offering GMs free life membership.

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 7173
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Membership requirements for British Championship events

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:22 pm
If, as alleged, the Indian Federation awarded new GMs a house, arguably the ECF could stretch to offering GMs free life membership.
Offering to pay for the titles when achieved would be more helpful in the short term.

Post Reply