Director of Women's Chess
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
"In 1984 I was the sector arbiter for the lower women's section at the Olympiad in Greece. My assistant arbiters referred to me as Mr Reuben. 'No, no,' I said, 'Call me Stewart'. After that they referred to me as Mr Stewart and I gave up on the non-issue.
Kevin, was that sexism and, if so, on whose part?"
I don't know! I hate "isms". Anyway, they should call you "Sir" and carry you around on a Sedan chair.
"As a matter of detail, there are female players who are quite content with their traditional form of address and dislike the recently invented "Ms". Their wishes should also be respected."
Exactly. I would have thought that unless you habitually put "Mr" where appropriate, you shouldn't put "Miss", "Mrs" or "Ms". I suppose Dr and Prof might turn up? I recall Lady Herbert playing at Hastings and I assume her title was put on the board then. Would it still be?
Kevin, was that sexism and, if so, on whose part?"
I don't know! I hate "isms". Anyway, they should call you "Sir" and carry you around on a Sedan chair.
"As a matter of detail, there are female players who are quite content with their traditional form of address and dislike the recently invented "Ms". Their wishes should also be respected."
Exactly. I would have thought that unless you habitually put "Mr" where appropriate, you shouldn't put "Miss", "Mrs" or "Ms". I suppose Dr and Prof might turn up? I recall Lady Herbert playing at Hastings and I assume her title was put on the board then. Would it still be?
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Which is rather to state the obvious. Yes, if a woman wishes to be Mrs or Miss then that's a different matter. The issue here is men telling a woman she couldn't be addressed as Ms whether she wanted to or not. Or unnecessarily specifying Miss and Mrs on a team sheet or minutes when the men are just known by their initial.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:15 amI also agree. It is disappointing to learn that there are parts of the country where this behaviour remains prevalent.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 amI agree with Andrew that the behaviour he described is not acceptable.
As a matter of detail, there are female players who are quite content with their traditional form of address and dislike the recently invented "Ms". Their wishes should also be respected.
As for some of the silly comments raised above. Sexist behaviour is (loosely) anything that is demeaning towards women and/ or makes them feel uncomfortable, and also carries on after they've politely asked them to stop. Yes juniors do cheat but I've seen far more examples of unsportsmanlike behaviour directed against juniors by adults than I have cheating by juniors.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
"Sexist behaviour is (loosely) anything that is demeaning towards women and/ or makes them feel uncomfortable, and also carries on after they've politely asked them to stop. Yes juniors do cheat but I've seen far more examples of unsportsmanlike behaviour directed against juniors by adults than I have cheating by juniors."
First point is rubbish - I have encountered sexist behaviour aimed at men.
Second point - I've seen adults cheat against juniors as well. All cheating is bad - sorry if you think that's "silly".
It worries me that some people think bias or poor behaviour is acceptable if it's directed only one way.
First point is rubbish - I have encountered sexist behaviour aimed at men.
Second point - I've seen adults cheat against juniors as well. All cheating is bad - sorry if you think that's "silly".
It worries me that some people think bias or poor behaviour is acceptable if it's directed only one way.
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
When Jill Triggs used to receive communications about international chess events, she was often addressed as Mr Triggs.
Writing letters, I used to have the problem of how to address a woman of whose marital status I was unaware. The invention of Ms solved that.
Angela and Maria Eagle, both MPs, came separately to the British Chess Championships in Liverpool in 2008. They both objected to the event still being called 'The British Ladies' Championship'. So for 2009 I changed it to 'British Women's Championship'. It was an easy way of making two ministers happier. The trophy has never been changed and there has never been any comment that I know of.
An Australian 16 year old girl achieved the title of Woman International Master WIM. When told of this she exclaimed, 'Does that mean I'm a woman now?'
Originally it used to be called International Woman's title IWM. But WGM was used. Why not WIM I asked the late Professor Lim Kok Ann. He answered that WIM means something rude. I was puzzled, but eventually I realised he meant QUIM and got it changed to WIM.
It used to be called The Men's Olympiad'. Yet a woman played in the very first one. With the help of Makro, I got the usage changed to Olympiad. People used to refer to a woman getting the men's GM title. Again, I got rid of that. Both of these were demeaning to women.
Nino Gurieli WGM came to the Lloyds Bank Masters. She asked me why Smagin was getting better start money than her. 'Because he is a GM and you are a WGM.' 'It's the same thing,' she answered. That provided a glass ceiling that impeded the chess development of some female players. When Nona Gaprindashvili and Pia Cramling became GMs that smashed that ceiling. It was I who suggested that Nona be awarded the GM title as Women's World Champion. The only person who objected was Nana Alexandria. I believe there is no need for the WGM title, IM is only 50 points higher. Malcolm Pein agrees with me.
There are very, very few men's prizes in chess, but many women's. The men compete alongside women for 'open' prizes. Is that sexist or positive discrimination?
Writing letters, I used to have the problem of how to address a woman of whose marital status I was unaware. The invention of Ms solved that.
Angela and Maria Eagle, both MPs, came separately to the British Chess Championships in Liverpool in 2008. They both objected to the event still being called 'The British Ladies' Championship'. So for 2009 I changed it to 'British Women's Championship'. It was an easy way of making two ministers happier. The trophy has never been changed and there has never been any comment that I know of.
An Australian 16 year old girl achieved the title of Woman International Master WIM. When told of this she exclaimed, 'Does that mean I'm a woman now?'
Originally it used to be called International Woman's title IWM. But WGM was used. Why not WIM I asked the late Professor Lim Kok Ann. He answered that WIM means something rude. I was puzzled, but eventually I realised he meant QUIM and got it changed to WIM.
It used to be called The Men's Olympiad'. Yet a woman played in the very first one. With the help of Makro, I got the usage changed to Olympiad. People used to refer to a woman getting the men's GM title. Again, I got rid of that. Both of these were demeaning to women.
Nino Gurieli WGM came to the Lloyds Bank Masters. She asked me why Smagin was getting better start money than her. 'Because he is a GM and you are a WGM.' 'It's the same thing,' she answered. That provided a glass ceiling that impeded the chess development of some female players. When Nona Gaprindashvili and Pia Cramling became GMs that smashed that ceiling. It was I who suggested that Nona be awarded the GM title as Women's World Champion. The only person who objected was Nana Alexandria. I believe there is no need for the WGM title, IM is only 50 points higher. Malcolm Pein agrees with me.
There are very, very few men's prizes in chess, but many women's. The men compete alongside women for 'open' prizes. Is that sexist or positive discrimination?
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
If we're going to be pedantic then yes, sexism as I defined it does cut both ways. Indeed I'm often the first to call out double standards in this regard. However this thread is related to chess, a pursuit in which women are very much a minority and there is no real reason why they should be a minority.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:48 am"Sexist behaviour is (loosely) anything that is demeaning towards women and/ or makes them feel uncomfortable, and also carries on after they've politely asked them to stop. Yes juniors do cheat but I've seen far more examples of unsportsmanlike behaviour directed against juniors by adults than I have cheating by juniors."
First point is rubbish - I have encountered sexist behaviour aimed at men.
Second point - I've seen adults cheat against juniors as well. All cheating is bad - sorry if you think that's "silly".
It worries me that some people think bias or poor behaviour is acceptable if it's directed only one way.
Regarding adults, juniors and cheating - yes all cheating is bad (and where have I used the word `silly`). The difference is that an adult victim of cheating is more likely to speak to the arbiter and get the matter raised while the child victim (possibly facing a man twice his size whose body language suggests `and what are you going to do about it, little boy`) is more likely to go away upset and find another hobby.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Well, to answer your question:
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
However, we are not taking part in a sport absolutely dominated by women, nor are we discussing how a post relating to men's chess has been given to a female crony of another woman when there were men interested in the job, nor is the discussion largely devoted to women patiently explaining to men how this really doesn't matter and not to be so silly, and the most important thing is not that men are represented but that there shouldn't be any positive discrimination towards them, and in the mean time everybody is making clear that they personally are in no way prejudiced and very much in favour of greater representation for men.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:48 am
First point is rubbish - I have encountered sexist behaviour aimed at men..
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
That's positive discrimination not sexism.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 amHere is an example of sexism in chess from British Championship Qualifying Regulations.
"5 – FIDE Masters rated 2300 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017
6 – Women’s FIDE Masters rated 2100 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017"
That's certainly a point of view. Does it include the status quo bias which positive discrimination seeks to address?
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
I've never been sure what the difference is. Discrimination is discrimination, and simply inserting the prefix "positive" does not change that. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to it.
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
That was also my point, but I was keen to stress that I do not necessarily consider it a bad thing.Michael Farthing wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:58 amThere is no such thing as positive discrimination. Discrimination is always negative.
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Phew!Michael Farthing wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:58 amThere is no such thing as positive discrimination. Discrimination is always negative.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Does that imply disagreement?
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Discrimination is a semantically neutral term even if its usual connotation is negative. So positive discrimination aims to counteract negative discrimination within social structures; i.e. it negates the inherent structural social bias against specific groups (women under sexism, people of colour under racism, and so forth) and hence aims to level the playing field over time.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:48 amI've never been sure what the difference is. Discrimination is discrimination, and simply inserting the prefix "positive" does not change that. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to it.
In the case of chess, positive discrimination – such as the women's board in the 4NCL - seeks to increase (over time) women's and girls' participation in an otherwise male-dominated game.
Actually, thinking about it, the lower rating limit in the British Championship is not really positive discrimination at all. It's more a practical solution to increase eligibility from a smaller playing pool, given that the Women's Championship is nowadays incorporated into the main event.
Last edited by Jon Tait on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Director of Women's Chess
Ah, right, so.Michael Farthing wrote: ↑Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:58 amThere is no such thing as positive discrimination. Discrimination is always negative.
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/