Director of Women's Chess

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger Lancaster
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:56 pm
I should perhaps clarify that there is a difference between clubs where women/ juniors/ younger players are actively made unwelcome and those where they inevitably end up feeling unwelcome by virtue of being the only one. For juniors, dedicated clubs have proved an obvious, and successful, solution (with the advantage that it is considerably easier to set the ball rolling with juniors than it is with adult minorities).
Very fair point, particularly about being "the only one", and I'm sure you're right.

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David Shepherd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Jon Tait wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:32 am
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 am
Here is an example of sexism in chess from British Championship Qualifying Regulations.

"5 – FIDE Masters rated 2300 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017
6 – Women’s FIDE Masters rated 2100 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017"
That's positive discrimination not sexism.
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 am
Any sort of bias is bad...
That's certainly a point of view. Does it include the status quo bias which positive discrimination seeks to address?

Correct me if I am wrong, but is the number of Englished registered FIDE active females that qualify under this positive discrimination quite a round figure that is somewhat less than 1? Of course for example for example Elaine Bamber the Scottish number 2 qualifies under this clause which does I think put the level of positive discrimination in some sort of context rather than just talking about rating bands.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Sarah Longson is currently the only active English woman with a 2100+ rating and a title lower than WIM.

There is also the edge case of Akshaya Kalaiyalahan, who has a 2100+ rating and the FM title.

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David Shepherd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:14 pm

Sarah and Akshaya already qualify though as former champions, so the positive discrimination is not so huge even if it might appear so by reading the regulations.
Last edited by David Shepherd on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:18 pm

True.

If you expand it to all rather than active only, there is one English woman with a 2100+ rating, the WFM title, and no British women's championships to her name: Sophie Tidman.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:22 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:14 pm
Sarah and Akshaya already qualify though as former champions
The complete list
B6.
Women’s FIDE Masters rated 2100 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017
Elaine Bamber, Ioana Gelip, Maria Manelidou, Jane Richmond, Xinyue Sun, Sophie Tidman
It includes Scottish, Welsh and inactive players as well as those resident in the UK but with non-British FIDE identification.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:26 pm

Ah yes, Xinyue Sun. I played her in last year's British.

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David Shepherd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:27 pm

The way the list is structured it shouldn't include Jane Richmond as she also qualifies as a former British Women's champion.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:02 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:27 pm
The way the list is structured it shouldn't include Jane Richmond as she also qualifies as a former British Women's champion.
She was known as Jane Garwell back then, of course.
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Brian Towers
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Brian Towers » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:18 pm

Andrew Martin wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:44 pm
Then , secondly, to work out a way of keeping all these girls playing as they move into late teens and beyond.

The ECF Academy actually has plenty of girls signed up and those numbers are increasing.
Here are some numbers crunched from the latest FIDE rating data.

These are player numbers and average FIDE Standard rating for ENG registered players split by DoB Year and sex. Does not include rapid and blitz in either totals or averages.

All ages
All - 3206 / 1860
M - 3015 / 1868
F - 191 / 1724

U18 (DoB Year >= 2000)
All - 427 / 1565
M - 364 / 1585
F - 63 / 1447

13 - 18 (2000 <= DoB Year <= 2005)
All - 325 / 1611
M - 279 / 1634
F - 46 / 1472

U13 (DoB Year >= 2006)
All - 102 / 1418
M - 85 / 1425
F - 17 / 1379

That gives female participation rates (in FIDE standard rated chess, remember) as -
Overall - 6%, U18 - 14.8%, 13-18 - 14.2%, U13 - 16.7%
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Hok Yin Stephen Chiu » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:16 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:14 am
If you write down a list of what a national chess federation of England has to do, there are some very obvious roles which are matched with Director level responsibilities. In England there's a problem with the number of people playing chess, so is concentrating on a subset of that issue, namely the number of women relevant?
Sure, some roles match the roles of directors, but if we think on those lines, we are simply perpetuating the status quo. I think the issue is that, it is not very obvious what needs to be done with regards to boosting women's chess, and there is a need for a director-level focus on coming up with concrete action/proposals on the matter.

Referring to your last point; in my experience, the number of women is very relevant, it can be rather off-putting walking into a room full of guys playing chess, because it is far easier for a group of male chess players in a room to draw in new male players than drawing in new female players. So extra effort has to be put in with regards to this particular very sizable demographic, given that there is such a disparity across the board.

--
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:32 am
Jovanka wrote:Air out all the crap that women have to go through.
Let's do that. I for one would genuinely like to know what this crap is.
However, its becoming increasingly common to hear of female chess players having to devote a lot of energy fighting for the most basic of things. Its so frustrating and shocking.
Again...
I do not know the context of Jovanka's statement, nor do I know her. However I do know the current English Womens' Champion (who is the President of Warwick Chess..), I shall ask what particular issue that she thinks Jovanka might be referring to... If appropriate I shall get back to you.
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:32 am
If the federation does secure sponsorship it should be used for both male and female national teams not just for one.
Doesn't the sponsor get a say?
Isn't the answer it depends? and possibly yes to both?
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:32 am
A guarantee that positive discrimination (in terms of tournaments, prizes, media coverage etc) will happen until female participation is at an acceptable rate.
Re tournaments and prizes, I thought that happened now. What more is needed? How is the ECF expected to guarantee media coverage?
I wonder what specific positive discrimination examples you are referring to - Best Girl prizes, etc?

I don't know what more is needed, but if we don't know, perhaps the ECF should do some surveys, or look at what other Federations are doing?

Nobody can guarantee media coverage, but we pretty much guaranteed media coverage with the most recent appointment of Womens' Director, I think we can agree... On a more serious note, we can drum up more media coverage depending on how important the news is, and get in touch with media organisations (local/national) to report on it...
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:32 am
The problem we face now is that the English Women's team is not merely weaker than the Open team ( obviously ), but they are also not as good as other Women's team. Let's hope that can be fixed, but until some visible progress is made it will be difficult to get the media excited. That should not stop the ECF from pushing out upbeat press releases.
Finally, please don’t direct any jealous snarky comments about positive discrimination/ women’s chess to female players. If you do need to say anything vile, feel free to rant away... but to an automated telephone hotline
Will my comments above be considered vile? I'm asking because I don't know.
I think you raised some pertinent questions, which doesn't necessary have a clear answer.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:47 pm

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:16 pm
I do not know the context of Jovanka's statement, nor do I know her. However I do know the current English Womens' Champion (who is the President of Warwick Chess..), I shall ask what particular issue that she thinks Jovanka might be referring to... If appropriate I shall get back to you.
That would be very helpful, thanks.
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Paul McKeown
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:40 pm

I only became aware of this a couple of days ago, when I read a few posts on John Upham's interesting and informative British Chess News.

Happily several women took part in that discussion.

However, of course, there were also a number of men and/or boys, who spent the time moaning about their imaginings about being on the wrong end of some feminist conspiracy to surplant the masculine part of the chess community. There was even one nut, who ranted about Feminazis and boys being forced to die in the army, so to balance it all out, girls should die from armed conflict for the next two centuries to even out the score, and loads of other entirely tiresome verbiage. He perhaps even raved about Hilary Clinton, but I couldn't swear to that, because by the end I wasn't paying much attention.

Happily, here, the discussion has been much more reasoned, perhaps down to Carl's excellent house-keeping.

However, it is quite apparent that there are a number of men here who protest overly about how they would welcome more female participation, yet seem to get quite steamed under the collar at the idea of any positive steps to promote the idea.

And sadly, only one woman has dared to take part in this conversation, which I think is quite telling.

I imagine that Chris Fegan is quite aware that it isn't a good look for a man to be appointed to the role of representing women in English chess. I wish him well in the role, but do hope that the appointment is fairly temporary, whilst a suitable woman is found to take his place.

At Richmond Juniors, I am aware that whilst we may have one hundred and twenty or so children on the books for our Saturday club at any given time, putting out a fully representative team of fifteen girls aged under eleven is often a bit of a struggle. When we had the luxury of having a female International Master running a regular class for girls, they flocked to see her, and attended regularly. Without her, it has always been more difficult. We have one regular female chess tutor, whom the kids all love, and this weekend we hope to have a second joining us. Girls do sometimes confide that they can find the huge mass of boys quite intimidating, particularly as they get older. It doesn't strike me at all unreasonable to believe that girls and young women are more likely to respond to strong female role models, and feel confident of their place in the world of chess, when they have someone like that to talk to, and even to look up to.

Teaching chess at City Lit, I get more women turning out than men, or at least an equal number. They all say one thing: they hate going to chess clubs, where it is wall to wall nerdy men, doing nerdy men things, and at best ignoring the female interloper, if not permanently putting her off.

Chess, in my view, desperately needs strong women to provide their perspective. Men on their own are not going to change things to make the sport and the way it is practised attractive to a female audience, no matter how well-meaning they may be (and you can guarantee that some will not be well-meaning).

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:11 am

I'm assuming you're referring to the British Chess News facebook page. I've just cross referenced the idiotic posts against the ECF grading database; two definitely have no chess playing history in this country at all, one may do but his name is a common one.

I don't think anybody here has any objection to initiatives to increase female participation in chess and the creation of a Women's Chess Network (I certainly don't). What people are objecting to is the bashing of the ECF in the national press by people who don't have the foggiest idea of how the ECF is constituted.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:36 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:11 am
What people are objecting to is the bashing of the ECF in the national press by people who don't have the foggiest idea of how the ECF is constituted.
You could be thankful that it's not the ECF President doing the bashing. Against that he's accused of the heinous crime of being a friend of Nigel Short.