Director of Women's Chess

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:33 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:52 am
They could be building a very productive relationship with the ECF right now to the benefit of everybody. Instead some strident misunderstanding on their part has led to backs being put up left right and centre.
"Strident" is good
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:21 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:38 am
However, as you're being criticised here for what you're saying rather than what you're doing, the objection is a specious one.

On top of that, what do you imagine a discussion board is for, if not to discuss?
Yes, of course, but - and this comment isn't targeted at any particular individual - constructive discussion rather than destructive criticism from individuals whose sole ambition seems to be 'backseat drivers'. Actually, my experience is that the forum is better in this respect than was the case, say, a year ago.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:47 pm

I know I am a few pages late, but I agree with a point Mike Gunn made. A pity there is not room for a wider spectrum of organisations inside the ECF.

I hope Andrew's views are not widely held. But I fear they might be. Good luck to Chris anyway.

I have not seen the gofundme publicised anywhere except here. Does anyone anything more about the initiative? I hope they are serious about becoming a charity. I was a bit disappointed a few years ago when the friends of chess rejected the idea. The ECF chess trust has not done anything to engage my enthusiasm as yet.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:06 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:47 pm
I know I am a few pages late, but I agree with a point Mike Gunn made. A pity there is not room for a wider spectrum of organisations inside the ECF.

I hope Andrew's views are not widely held. But I fear they might be. Good luck to Chris anyway.

I have not seen the gofundme publicised anywhere except here. Does anyone anything more about the initiative? I hope they are serious about becoming a charity. I was a bit disappointed a few years ago when the friends of chess rejected the idea. The ECF chess trust has not done anything to engage my enthusiasm as yet.
Believe it or not I would also like to see a wider spectrum or organisations within the ECF. I would also add that if the participation numbers quoted by Casual Chess are correct they have a fairly obvious option of signing as many of their players up to the ECF as possible and organise a few ECF rated events - this would give them votes at Council and the opportunity to build alliances with other progressive groups (and I am determined that the Yorkshire CA will be one).

I don't know (or really care) how widely held my `views` are. I will simply continue to do what I have always been most passionate about doing and wish I could do more of; attracting new players to the game. I'll add, driven in part by the fact that at 37 I fear being left in an empty room by the time I'm 50.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:24 pm

Remarkable advice for the women's chess network. Perhaps we could also get them to wear false beards. We would not want our diversity to alarm anyone.

I imagine nearly everyone on the forum is involved in junior chess in some way. It's relevance to this discussion escapes me.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:55 pm

Did I say that? On the contrary I would love people to be alarmed by a bit of diversity within the ECF. There is far too much sexism, racism and general bigotry in English chess for my liking. But if the ECF is to become a more diverse organisation. more diverse groups have to become a part of it. If we were to move towards a OMOV system (which I know is your preferred option and I would prefer members to be able to have a more direct say then they do at present) then Casual Chess' members (and indeed anybody else) would have to be a member in order to have a vote.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:47 pm

That is a view. Not one I share.

I'm not in favour of omov although that seems off topic too.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:50 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:47 pm
That is a view. Not one I share.

I'm not in favour of omov although that seems off topic too.
I was under the impression that you were. I apologise for the misunderstanding.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:41 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:55 pm
There is far too much sexism, racism and general bigotry in English chess for my liking.
Really? I play in several leagues in and around London and never see any of these things. What signs should I be looking for?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:53 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:41 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:55 pm
There is far too much sexism, racism and general bigotry in English chess for my liking.
Really? I play in several leagues in and around London and never see any of these things. What signs should I be looking for?
A few I've seen;

A divorced lady being repeatedly referred to as `Mrs` despite her stated wish to be `Ms` (`you're either Mrs or Miss, not Ms` from a male club member)

Tying into that, until relatively recently you saw captains using the old fashioned convention of female players being listed on team sheets by their marital status (ie board 1 A N Other 2 J Smith 3 Mrs J Bloggs etc)

Suggesting that attractive female members could be used to distract the opposition

Casual references to `poufters` in conversation.

A general hostility towards younger players with new ideas.

The list is not exhaustive.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:09 am

I should add that, in part, this is nothing new. There was the famous example of a letter sent to Chess in the early 70s from a retired gentleman accusing an unnamed female player of looking like an `unescorted harlot` and telling the new generation they would never reach the standards of Sir George Thomas unless they (among many other things) used English notation. However then the Fischer Spassky generation had the numbers to strongarm the old guard into doing it their way. Ironically that's the generation who impose their outdated views (not all of them I hasten to add) on the chess scene while young players are driven to a new hobby.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:19 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:09 am
There was the famous example of a letter sent to Chess in the early 70s from a retired gentleman accusing an unnamed female player of looking like an `unescorted harlot`
I always wondered whether that was a spoof, designed to wind up BH Wood. The writer did have a marginal point though about rare female sightings amongst the massed male ranks of teenagers and 20-30s . In that era , veteran prizes meant over 40s.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 am

I agree with Andrew that the behaviour he described is not acceptable. Add to that, the young people coming along wanting to change all the rules and saying any older players not liking it can stop playing. I can think of occasions where juniors graded 190+ have cheated and people leap into action saying they shouldn't be punished as they're "juniors and didn't understand the rules".

Here is an example of sexism in chess from British Championship Qualifying Regulations.

"5 – FIDE Masters rated 2300 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017
6 – Women’s FIDE Masters rated 2100 or higher on the rating list published on 1st July, 2017"

Any sort of bias is bad...

"I should add that, in part, this is nothing new. There was the famous example of a letter sent to Chess in the early 70s from a retired gentleman accusing an unnamed female player of looking like an `unescorted harlot` and telling the new generation they would never reach the standards of Sir George Thomas unless they (among many other things) used English notation."

I agree with Roger that might have been a spoof, even BH Wood might have invented it. I think Fischer was using English notation, so the anonymous correspondent might have had a point.

NickFaulks
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:15 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 am
I agree with Andrew that the behaviour he described is not acceptable.
I also agree. It is disappointing to learn that there are parts of the country where this behaviour remains prevalent.

As a matter of detail, there are female players who are quite content with their traditional form of address and dislike the recently invented "Ms". Their wishes should also be respected.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:32 am

Nick >As a matter of detail, there are female players who are quite content with their traditional form of address and dislike the recently invented "Ms". Their wishes should also be respected.<

In 1984 I was the sector arbiter for the lower women's section at the Olympiad in Greece. My assistant arbiters referred to me as Mr Reuben. 'No, no,' I said, 'Call me Stewart'. After that they referred to me as Mr Stewart and I gave up on the non-issue.
Kevin, was that sexism and, if so, on whose part?

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