British championship grading sections in the main event

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:30 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:21 pm
I don't think anybody has really explained why everybody in a national championships should be given the chance to compete for a 'special prize' or monetary reward, rather than play for prestige.
In that case drop the concept of rating prizes entirely, rather than exclude players below a certain rating from them. It was a policy also adopted by the London Chess Classic in 2016, but dropped in 2017.

J T Melsom
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:41 pm

I wouldn't personally drop rating prizes, but I'm not sure they should necessarily reward people scoring less than 50%. Don't personally care how you calculate them but I'd rather see people rewarded for good performance not for doggedness in week 2 when others around them are flagging and less motivated. I just didn't see the offence being taken as proportionate to the facts. Nothing of course to stop those U2051 who feel so offended having their own private prize.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:44 pm

Actually, W-We prizes tend to reward good performance in the first half of a tournament, because that gives you a strong later field against which it's difficult to lose large quantities of rating points.

J T Melsom
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:57 pm

Jack, that's a fair comment, and I do now recall a rating prize in one of the Classic weekenders being awarded to somebody who had taken a bye and finished in a lower score group, so W-We may be a bit random, though hopefully not so much over 11 rounds. But I'm still not feeling as insulted as others, and I genuinely don't believe all but the most principled will take umbrage and boycott the event which would happen if things were truly 'deplorable' as has been suggested. Most of us just play chess for the challenge , the occasional financial reward is a rare bonus.

John Reyes
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by John Reyes » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:33 pm

if someone has qualifying for the event, they should be able to try and win something, an person who is under 2051 and wanted to play, will have to pay £300 to win nothing!!
Maybe the ECF need to just give a small grading prize like £250, at least it is something to play for.

As I said before, if they don't want lower-graded players in the event then they shouldn't have let them qualify.

They seem to want it both ways - they want their entry fees but not give them a chance of any prizemoney.

That is not good for chess and any player who is under 2051 and wanted to play in the open!!


look at Eddie the eagle, he was told he not good enough to ski and look what he did! if you qualify, the ECF should do something about this
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:37 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:33 pm
They seem to want it both ways - they want their entry fees but not give them a chance of any prizemoney.
It seems to me it's an issue that should be raised at an AGM or other Council meeting. Is the policy of cutting off grading prizes supported by the representatives of the member organisations and individual members of the ECF?

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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:47 pm

Roger

There is no reason why you should not raise the matter with your ECF representative directly or at the next county AGM, and/or volunteer to attend the next ECF meeting in person. But for all the words posted here I'm not really sure that your views will evoke much interest - you were in a notably small minority on membership, and I don't think the prize structure at the British in a transitional year will evoke as much debate.

Eric Gardiner
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Eric Gardiner » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:48 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:33 pm

They seem to want it both ways - they want their entry fees but not give them a chance of any prizemoney.

That is not good for chess and any player who is under 2051 and wanted to play in the open!!


Am I correct in thinking that U-2051s are still eligible for many of the other prizes, so that rather than having no chance of any prizes they will have a small chance of some prize? Being female, under 21 or over 50 also appears to help increase the chance of a prize for a U-2051.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Michael Farthing » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:54 pm

oh.. and presumably they are also eligible for the title of British Champion?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:55 pm

Eric Gardiner wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:48 pm
Being female, under 21 or over 50 also appears to help increase the chance of a prize for a U-2051.
That same applies to players above 2051. Grading prizes go a long way up. In effect there are prizes for GMs failing to make the major places.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:02 pm

"There'll presumably still be a quota of scarily underrated juniors out there

They belong of course. Standard people who are just <2050 is another matter."

Really? I qualified by finishing 3rd= with GM Korneev in a 7-round event. Juniors have a massive K, so their ratings can be randomly high as well as randomly low. Last (and only previous) time I played the British, 20 years ago, I beat Ruth Sheldon and Karl Mah in successive rounds and they were higher-rated than me.

It does seem odd that ECF decides to make qualification very difficult for players under 2050 (which is fair enough) and then says, "How dare you qualify! We will wreak our revenge by only allowing you to try to win a top ten prize or the Best Game Prize." I'm expecting lots of practice with the black pieces! It would be much better (now that ratings exist) if the British Championship reverted to a 12 player all-play-all. It stopped being an all-play-all abut 70 years ago, when the selectors got Gordon Crown (I think) in as a reserve and he finished 3rd. BH Wood reported in "Chess" that maybe Crown should have been selected in the first place. Alexander and Milner-Barry were furious and wrote to BHW, saying, "Shut it, you slag!" (I'm paraphrasing.) Shortly afterwards, probably because of the furore, the Championship became an 11-round Swiss for 30 or so players, then gradually grew. When I played the first time, when it was strong, I was 2200ish and seeded 67 out of 82. About 5 years ago, 2200 put you in the top half. So obviously it was going wrong, especially for norm chances. It is also alleged that some lower-rated players bought their way in to the event.

You could invite the 10 highest rated players, last year's winner and the top eligible player in Major Open. Any who drop out are replaced by the next highest rated player.

Surely it's also an issue that the British Woman champion is taken from the British itself, where it's frequently the case that the winner and runner-up have about 50 %, and everyone knows that Swisses are only reliable at the top and bottom of the tournament. It's therefore a bit of a lottery who wins the title.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:55 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:02 pm
It does seem odd that ECF decides to make qualification very difficult for players under 2050
It remains to be seen how strong this year's Major Open will be in comparison with last year's, but allowing 10 or more qualifiers is always likely to allow some lower rated players to sneak in.

The results of the qualification Grand Prix have yet to be finalised. Again it remains to be seen what rating the lowest rated qualifier will have. Anyone with a rating of 2050 gained by alternating 2200 performances with 1900 ones should stand a reasonable chance if they entered enough events to get 3 or 4 good ones.

On the basis of the 34 entries so far, Kevin would face Mark Hebden in the first round.

John Reyes
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by John Reyes » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:04 am

i do understand the ECF need to make a stand, but if you are grading this year as under 2051, and paying £300 to play in the main championship to win nothing, what is the point of them entering the event, if they have qualifying, my thing is that maybe they should have done an u2051 and below grading price, for them to aim for some thing?

also it would be like oh by the way mr GM, you can play in the event but we will not give you a Fee and you have to win the prize to get your money
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:55 pm

"On the basis of the 34 entries so far, Kevin would face Mark Hebden in the first round."

Bring him on!

I take John's point about the treatment of weak qualifiers (like me), but I've now qualified for it twice in about 50 years, so I'm just happy to be there, as it is a real achievement. Last time, all 11 opponents were rated higher than me and I value the opportunity to play interesting opponents. Obviously, I will be a bit fed up if I keep losing but I'll try to get the odd shock result...

Richard Bates
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Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am

Just a thought on an alternative on the rating prize debate - what you could do is make those u2051 eligible for the rating prize, but on the basis that they are rated as a 2051.

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