British championship grading sections in the main event

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
NickFaulks
Posts: 4869
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:21 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am
Just a thought on an alternative on the rating prize debate - what you could do is make those u2051 eligible for the rating prize, but on the basis that they are rated as a 2051.
I suggested that earlier in the thread. The organisers' refusal to do this can only be interpreted as "we know you qualified, but we wish you hadn't and we really don't want you".

John Reyes
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by John Reyes » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:16 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am
Just a thought on an alternative on the rating prize debate - what you could do is make those u2051 eligible for the rating prize, but on the basis that they are rated as a 2051.
you would this so, but no one from the ecf has offer that or doing a u2501 and under, what is an extra £250?, you might get more entries?
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17880
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:41 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:21 am
The organisers' refusal to do this can only be interpreted as "we know you qualified, but we wish you hadn't and we really don't want you".
They would have to do a parallel calculation of the rating performance with players reset at 2051, or whatever. How easy or difficult this is to do is a function of arbiter understanding of how to manipulate the pairing and results software and data.

The excuse for trying to discourage lower rated players is the effect playing them has on Norm chances. I don't know how credible this is and whether it has really discouraged players with Norm chances from entering.

Entries can be seen at https://www.britishchesschampionships.c ... ants-2018/

At the time of writing, there are just 2 entrants (out of 16) to the Major Open with ratings above 1950.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 6098
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:37 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:21 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am
Just a thought on an alternative on the rating prize debate - what you could do is make those u2051 eligible for the rating prize, but on the basis that they are rated as a 2051.
I suggested that earlier in the thread. The organisers' refusal to do this can only be interpreted as "we know you qualified, but we wish you hadn't and we really don't want you".
I rarely understand ratings-based discussions and suspect that this will not be an exception, but is there any explanation (official or otherwise) other than this? I partly ask because it doesn't seem to me to be a particularly effective deterrent.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Richard Bates
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:23 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:16 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 am
Just a thought on an alternative on the rating prize debate - what you could do is make those u2051 eligible for the rating prize, but on the basis that they are rated as a 2051.
you would this so, but no one from the ecf has offer that or doing a u2501 and under, what is an extra £250?, you might get more entries?
Because they don’t want more entries, that’s the whole point! And there are actually some very good reasons for this (beyond Roger’s point about ‘norms’), especially in circumstances where they are not dependent on entry fees to the same extent to prop up the prize fund.

The most obvious one relates to the Championship itself. The reduction to nine rounds has made it far more likely that some of the leading contenders won’t play each other and so it is sensible to try to respond by reducing both the overall size of the tournament, as well as the number of slightly “wasted” rounds at the start which are unlikely to have much affect on the eventual tournament outcome. It also slightly reduces the chances of “Swiss gambit” type outcomes whereby people end up very high in the standings without having to play especially strong fields.

And then at the other end there is arguably a benefit for the weaker players who have managed to meet the slightly tougher qualification criteria and wish to get some benefits in playing the sort of players they might not meet outside of a National Championship. I feel that having qualified in the first place a player should feel they can expect a field a bit stronger that they might get just by playing in the Major Open. With the realistic possibility of playing a number of titled players if they perform a bit above expectations.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4869
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:59 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:23 pm
I feel that having qualified in the first place a player should feel they can expect a field a bit stronger that they might get just by playing in the Major Open.
Might they not also feel that they can expect a shot at some rating prize?

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1774
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:21 pm

Those who want the carrot of a rating prize would be better entering the Major Open, where they might even have a chance of a proper prize.

Reg Clucas
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:45 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:55 pm
I've now qualified for it twice in about 50 years, so I'm just happy to be there, as it is a real achievement.
I agree (and congratulations, by the way). The kudos of qualifying outweighs any cash prize - there are congresses nearly every weekend for those who want to win money.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3899
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:30 am

>they should have done this as 2200 and under.<

I have just read this thread and I am amazed nobody has analysed the fairly obvious objectives. I skimmed a bit and may have missed that point though.

The principal has always been that anybody should be able to qualify for the British Chess Championship from chess events, irrespective of his/her previous chess playing history.
One of the primary objectives of rating prizes is to help encourage weaker players to perform well. In Gibraltar this goes down to players as weak as below 2650.
But the organisers don't want to encourage the very low rated players to compete. So there is a minimum rating band.

For rating prizes W-We has 3 advantages. 1. That it is most unlikely two people will get the same score. 2. That it is fairer as it doesn't depend so much on the pairings. 3. That a player can get such a prize, even though low in the rating band. I am about 2240 on the USCF Scale. My rating band, when I used to play in the US, was 2400-2200. My probability of winning a rating prize was virtually zero.

Jusine Horton > I rarely understand ratings-based discussions and suspect that this will not be an exception, but is there any explanation (official or otherwise) other than this? <
You may find some help in my book 'Chess Organisers' Handbook'. Sections are available online on the ECF website. But I don't know what you want to understand and know.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4869
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:57 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:30 am
The principal has always been that anybody should be able to qualify for the British Chess Championship from chess events, irrespective of his/her previous chess playing history.

But the organisers don't want to encourage the very low rated players to compete. So there is a minimum rating band.

For rating prizes W-We has 3 advantages. 1. That it is most unlikely two people will get the same score. 2. That it is fairer as it doesn't depend so much on the pairings. 3. That a player can get such a prize, even though low in the rating band. I am about 2240 on the USCF Scale. My rating band, when I used to play in the US, was 2400-2200. My probability of winning a rating prize was virtually zero.
If anyone is allowed to qualify by achieving an excellent result, then having done so they should not be treated like dirt because the organisers wish they hadn't done so.

Regarding the W-We points,

1. The prize can be shared - people like winning prizes. Alternatively there could be a tiebreak, W-We if you must. I just don't like someone scoring 5 points getting the prize ahead of others who scored 5 1/2 or 6.

2. That is a feature of the Swiss system which players have always understood.

3. In that case the rating bands were too wide. They can be ( and typically have been ) narrowed. More radically, a series of tournaments could mix up the bands for rating prizes by using intermediate levels in alternate years.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3899
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:21 pm

I don't think they are treated like dirt.
You may not like somebody getting a prize, although usually scoring at most 0.5 point less because they have played stronger opposition. I like it and possibly was the first to introduce the system. One disadvantage of W-We is that everybody in that segment LOST rating points. So the winner was the one who lost fewest.

Bill Goichberg does things his own way and has the opinion that the system he uses is best for attracting entries.

I remember when he first introduced large rating prizes, I was dubious about the merit of that. But I didn't know why. Later I realised it encouraged players not to become stronger and sometimes to sandbag by deliberately lowering their rating.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 2802
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:31 am

"I remember when he first introduced large rating prizes, I was dubious about the merit of that. But I didn't know why. Later I realised it encouraged players not to become stronger and sometimes to sandbag by deliberately lowering their rating."

I would have thought that people do that to be able to play in lower sections as well.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:13 pm

How widespread is "sandbagging" in reality, though?

I get the impression it is far more rumoured than it actually occurs.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

John Reyes
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by John Reyes » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:30 am
>they should have done this as 2200 and under.<

I have just read this thread and I am amazed nobody has analysed the fairly obvious objectives. I skimmed a bit and may have missed that point though.

The principal has always been that anybody should be able to qualify for the British Chess Championship from chess events, irrespective of his/her previous chess playing history.
One of the primary objectives of rating prizes is to help encourage weaker players to perform well. In Gibraltar this goes down to players as weak as below 2650.
But the organisers don't want to encourage the very low rated players to compete. So there is a minimum rating band.

For rating prizes W-We has 3 advantages. 1. That it is most unlikely two people will get the same score. 2. That it is fairer as it doesn't depend so much on the pairings. 3. That a player can get such a prize, even though low in the rating band. I am about 2240 on the USCF Scale. My rating band, when I used to play in the US, was 2400-2200. My probability of winning a rating prize was virtually zero.

Jusine Horton > I rarely understand ratings-based discussions and suspect that this will not be an exception, but is there any explanation (official or otherwise) other than this? <
You may find some help in my book 'Chess Organisers' Handbook'. Sections are available online on the ECF website. But I don't know what you want to understand and know.
I agreed and disagreed with you stuart,
I understand the British Chess Championship is the elite event to qualify, but as I say, there a few people who have qualify, but can't win a rating prize as there is not one for under 2051 and that is my point.

I email alex and I did feel that his answer was right and wrong.
I know that the elite people get fees to play in the british, but would they do it, if there was no fees, just the 1st, 2nd and 3rd

that my point, and it discounted the people who got though to win nothing, just here £300 for 11 games
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3852
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:18 pm

The GMs probably wouldn't play in the British if there were no fees, no. GMs as a class tend to be rather risk-averse, and while they may be happy to gamble on the occasional weekender with only two nights' accommodation to find, a long event with eight nights' accommodation is another matter entirely.

Post Reply