ECF Tournament Rules

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm

Thank you, Brian.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:42 pm

And a thank you to Brian also from me.
I as beginning to think I was cracking up.
I was unaware of the ECF's change of policy.
Isn't communication a wonderful thing. I'll now ask the ECF Chief Arbiter when she finishes bringing dinner why I wasn't informed of the change :D
(I did the dessert!!)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:42 pm
I was unaware of the ECF's change of policy.
Isn't communication a wonderful thing. I'll now ask the ECF Chief Arbiter when she finishes bringing dinner why I wasn't informed of the change :D
I confess that I didn't check up on whether the CAA Chairman informed the rest of the CAA.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:28 pm

Sadly, my post, typed on my phone, seems to have gotten lost.

I am concerned on three issues:
a) I seem to have missed the announcement that the ECF was changing its Tournament Rules. That is, no doubt, on me, but I would appreciate a commitment from the ECF that any future change to the Tournament Rules be loudly broadcast on all available media.
b) My simple reading of the two linked ECF pages is that, literally, the ECF is now saying that it should only grade zero default games. I am, however, sure that that is not what the ECF intends.
c) The ECF makes clear that the FIDE Laws are authoritative. However, nowhere to my knowledge, does it state that the Organisers Guide is also an authority.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:30 pm

]The CAA:
The actual start time, rather than the scheduled start time should be used to determine if a player has defaulted
Is this true?

If so, should FIDE not state this?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:43 pm

CAA rules noted by Paul McKeown wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:30 pm
The actual start time, rather than the scheduled start time should be used to determine if a player has defaulted
It's what you might expect to happen in practice as a player with a missing opponent would claim when the clock shows that the default tolerance has elapsed. So if the clocks are slightly late being started, that gives a little longer for late arrivals to make it.

FIDE rule makers may live in an imaginary universe where rounds don't start late, notwithstanding it being a standard practice for years in European Opens for the first round to start late as the arbiters struggled to find out who was present and put them in ranking order. The pragmatic solution adopted by Stewart Reuben and others back in the 1970s that you pair on the basis of who you expect and re-pair games not started after half an hour based on who is present seems to have passed them by.

Brian Towers
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:55 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:30 pm
The CAA:
The actual start time, rather than the scheduled start time should be used to determine if a player has defaulted
Is this true?

If so, should FIDE not state this?
It does.

Just as the CAA produces its own annotated copy of the FIDE Laws of Chess, so does the FIDE Arbiters Commission. The 2018 edition is here.

Here is the relevant section -
FIDE Arbiters' Commission - Arbiters' Manual 2018 wrote:6.7.1 The regulations of an event shall specify a default time in advance. If the default
time is not specified, then it is zero. Any player who arrives at the chessboard after the
default time shall lose the game unless the arbiter decides otherwise.
6.7.2 If the regulations of an event specify that the default time is not zero and if neither
player is present initially, White shall lose all the time that elapses until he arrives,
unless the regulations of an event specify or the arbiter decides otherwise.
Annotation:
The start of the session is the moment, when the arbiter announces it. If the default
time is 0, the arbiter has to declare the game lost for the players who are not present
at their chessboards. It is preferable to install a large digital countdown device in
the playing hall. For FIDE events with fewer than 30 players an appropriate
announcement must be made five minutes before the round is due to start and again
one minute before start of the game.
Alternatively, a clock should be on the wall inside the playing hall and provide the
official time of the tournament.
If the default time is not 0, it is advisable that the arbiter publicly announces the time
of the start of the round and that he writes down the starting time.
If the default time is for example 30 minutes and the round was scheduled to start at
15.00, but actually started at 15.15, then any player who hasn’t arrived by 15.45 loses
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:20 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:28 pm
Sadly, my post, typed on my phone, seems to have gotten lost.

I am concerned on three issues:
a) I seem to have missed the announcement that the ECF was changing its Tournament Rules. That is, no doubt, on me, but I would appreciate a commitment from the ECF that any future change to the Tournament Rules be loudly broadcast on all available media.
b) My simple reading of the two linked ECF pages is that, literally, the ECF is now saying that it should only grade zero default games. I am, however, sure that that is not what the ECF intends.
c) The ECF makes clear that the FIDE Laws are authoritative. However, nowhere to my knowledge, does it state that the Organisers Guide is also an authority.
I can't comment on a) because it is no longer my responsibility.

b) "1. Games submitted to the ECF for grading must be played in accordance with the FIDE Laws of Chess, or as modified by the ECF Competition Rules." The reference should be to the Tournament Rules rather than Competition Rules, but I think it's clear that the ECF is not saying that.

c) If you mean the FIDE Guidelines for Organisers, they are really just a regurgitation of what is already stated in the FIDE Laws of Chess, but all of the things the organiser may vary are included in one short document, rather than mixed in with the rest of the FIDE Laws of Chess.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:24 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:20 pm

"1. Games submitted to the ECF for grading must be played in accordance with the FIDE Laws of Chess, or as modified by the ECF Competition Rules." The reference should be to the Tournament Rules rather than Competition Rules, but I think it's clear that the ECF is not saying that.

1. Games submitted to the ECF for grading must be played in accordance with the FIDE Laws of Chess, or as modified by the ECF Competition Rules.
4. According to Article 6.7.1 of the FIDE Laws of Chess, the regulations of an event shall specify a default time. If the default time is not specified, then it is zero.
Yes, you are correct.

However, what you are not admitting to, is that the ECF Competition Rules have been changed so that events have been rendered literally ungradeable where they were relying on the ECF holding to their previous statement that in the absence of statements by organisers to the contrary, the default time for standard play events was half an hour and for rapid play events was ten minutes.

The point is that the ECF previously specified default times in the absence of an organiser's statement. Then the ECF removed that specification, without much publicity or (possibly) any at all.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:35 am

Brian Towers wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:23 pm

No, you are not mistaken. I printed out the page at the time (actually just over 4 pages) and added it to my arbiting loose leaf folder along with the FIDE Laws of Chess and other league stuff. If it will help your sanity I can scan it in and post.

The relevant part was as follows
English Chess Federation Tournament Rules dated 1st September, 2016 wrote:Section A: Regulations applying to all events

1) The organizer will state a time control within the limits specified by Appendix A1 of the Laws of Chess

2) Unless the organizer specifies otherwise on the entry form, the Default time under Law 6.7 shall be 30 minutes for a Standard-play game and 10 minutes for a Rapidplay game.
I think that would be very useful on your part, Brian. Please do it.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:42 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:20 pm
I can't comment on a) because it is no longer my responsibility.
Whilst true, a placatory statement would have said that you recognised the concern, and would pass it on to your successor.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:44 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:20 pm
c) If you mean the FIDE Guidelines for Organisers, they are really just a regurgitation of what is already stated in the FIDE Laws of Chess, but all of the things the organiser may vary are included in one short document, rather than mixed in with the rest of the FIDE Laws of Chess.
So, your first statement relied on a "regurgitation", rather than something of actual value?

J T Melsom
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:49 am

It is perfectly possible for issues to be raised with the incoming director via the facility on the ECF website. There is no need for people to berate the outgoing director just because he occasionally helps the forum tick over.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:53 am

What was the point of the outgoing director responding, then, if his ultimate statement was that he was the outgoing director?

J T Melsom
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Re: ECF Tournament Rules

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:21 am

No idea other than it was fair comment.

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