ECF FIDE Delegate

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Andy Howie
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Andy Howie » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:30 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The ECF delegate is also an arbiter. It doesn't appear that he has much time available for arbiting at British events. However when he does act as arbiter, more often than not it's at a FIDE or ECU event being run in an agreeable hotel in a holiday resort. Some might think that it's a potential conflict of interest to accept such a role (with expenses) at an event when you are in a position to vote as to whether resort A or resort B should be awarded said event.
As an Arbiter (Sorry Roger :-) ), I have to agree that the FIDE / ECU events tend to be in a nice hotel, I am working towards my FIDE qualification so I can do international events. I know from the 30 or so events I do in this country (Scotland) that, despite how easy we try to make it look, arbiting is very tiring and hard work. I often wonder how Lara and Alex manage doing for example, the Scottish this year, immediately followed by the Glorney / Faber the following week and finishing it off with 2 weeks at the British, and still manage to keep us laughing when we are packing up on the Friday night.

My understanding is the way that the selection of location of events in the ECU is changing so that it is the congress that determines who has the events (FIDE use the same system). On that basis, the delegate is just one person who cannot determine what is happening, that is down to the will of the meeting.

Enough of my rambling, Whomever the delegate is, I certainly look forward to seeing them at any future meetings

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Carl Hibbard » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:43 pm

John Moore wrote:Nigel may be a member - and his posts were a bit over the top - but Gerry isn't and doesn't and obviously never will.
Yes of course John, however I am missing your point on this one?

If Nigel wants to include his "thoughts" on the post then clearly I would be happy to publish the ideas of Gerry as well
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:50 pm

Andy Howie wrote:
Enough of my rambling, Whomever the delegate is, I certainly look forward to seeing them at any future meetings
Well if the ECF council did elect Nigel, you are aware that he's in favour of ending Scotland's separate teams in international events ? In other words he favours for chess the Olympic model of British sport rather than the football, rugby union and cricket model.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:53 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andy Howie wrote:
Enough of my rambling, Whomever the delegate is, I certainly look forward to seeing them at any future meetings
Well if the ECF council did elect Nigel, you are aware that he's in favour of ending Scotland's separate teams in international events ? In other words he favours for chess the Olympic model of British sport rather than the football, rugby union and cricket model.
A nit-picker writes: football, rugby union, Test cricket and one-day cricket all have different models for these islands, and none of them are quite the same as chess, as can be seen from the numbers of national teams in each sport:

Test cricket: 1
Olympics: 2
One-day cricket: 3
Rugby Union: 4
Football: 5
Chess: 6

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:57 pm

FM Jack Rudd wrote: Test cricket: 1
One-day cricket: 3
Well, hang on... Scotland and Ireland are perfectly entitled to play Test cricket - they're just not good enough. It's not a case that anyone from Ireland or Scotland gets in to the England team. That just happens because most of them who are any good can play for England because they'll be playing in the County Championship. They're separate members of the ICC, just like England. So in effect, cricket has 3 teams for these isles, as the ECB is the England & Wales Cricket Board.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:05 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
FM Jack Rudd wrote: Test cricket: 1
One-day cricket: 3
Well, hang on... Scotland and Ireland are perfectly entitled to play Test cricket - they're just not good enough. It's not a case that anyone from Ireland or Scotland gets in to the England team. That just happens because most of them who are any good can play for England because they'll be playing in the County Championship. They're separate members of the ICC, just like England. So in effect, cricket has 3 teams for these isles, as the ECB is the England & Wales Cricket Board.
Excellent. I applaud the nitpick of my nitpick. So Test Cricket has potentially 3, but in practice 1, team from the British Isles, or whatever you decide to call this part of the world.

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:20 pm

FM Jack Rudd wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
FM Jack Rudd wrote: Test cricket: 1
One-day cricket: 3
Well, hang on... Scotland and Ireland are perfectly entitled to play Test cricket - they're just not good enough. It's not a case that anyone from Ireland or Scotland gets in to the England team. That just happens because most of them who are any good can play for England because they'll be playing in the County Championship. They're separate members of the ICC, just like England. So in effect, cricket has 3 teams for these isles, as the ECB is the England & Wales Cricket Board.
Excellent. I applaud the nitpick of my nitpick. So Test Cricket has potentially 3, but in practice 1, team from the British Isles, or whatever you decide to call this part of the world.
Correct. To be fair, Ireland would have a chance at Test status - Ed Joyce and Eion Morgan have abandoned ship for England. About three or four others play in the County Championship in England. They'd certainly be as good as Bangladesh.

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:45 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Well, hang on... Scotland and Ireland are perfectly entitled to play Test cricket - they're just not good enough. It's not a case that anyone from Ireland or Scotland gets in to the England team. That just happens because most of them who are any good can play for England because they'll be playing in the County Championship. They're separate members of the ICC, just like England. So in effect, cricket has 3 teams for these isles, as the ECB is the England & Wales Cricket Board.
To be fair, Alex, in recent years, the Paddies Joyce and Morgan have played ODI's for England, as have the Jocks Brown and Hamilton. Dozens of both (and Cloggies and Helmethorned Danes, too, for that matter) play in the England and Wales Cricket Boards Counties Championship. I'm sure that if one was to delve into the more distant past, one would find that several Scots and Irish have played tests for England & Wales, too. And, given, the recent resurgence of interest in cricket in those nations, it seems only a matter of time before one of their players is deemed good enough to play in a test match again. Personally, I find it annoying that the ECB should snaffle up and then discard talented players from the minor nations in the way that it does. It would make sense that for purposes of ODI that players from the minor nations that have actually managed to achieve a main table ODI ranking (e.g. Ireland, Kenya, now the Scots, the Nederlanders) should be off-limits, although allowed to play tests for England, should the players be good enough, and until the minor country was good enough to achieve test status.

It seems to me also, that this conversation has neglected the many other forms of British nationals, those that lie outside of the United Kingdom: Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Bermuda, British Virgin Isles, et cetera, et cetera. Many of these are represented internationally as separate units in many sports (including cricket and chess), whilst being part of the United Kingdom as far Olympic participation is concerned. I think as far as Cricket is concerned that England and Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Jersey, Guernsey and Bermuda are represented internationally, which is 6, rather than 3. Perhaps I have missed someone out... any advances?

It seems to me that sport is enriched by diversity rather than diminished, but that is a personal matter.

Just to be clear on this issue: there ain't no f'ing way on Earth that Scotland/Wales/Ireland (any part thereof)/Jersey/etc. will surrender its identity at FIDE to the score of some G&S/Jerusalem/Chariot comic opera conducted by Grossmeister Nigel. The issue is plain daft.

And why would one want the number of democratically and transparently managed federations affiliated to FIDE to be reduced, anyway? There are precious few as it is....
"Liberty without equality is of noble sound but squalid meaning" - LT Hobhouse

William Metcalfe
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by William Metcalfe » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:59 am

Mike denness prob spelt wrong i know was a scot who captained england at cricket
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Geoff Chandler
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:07 am

Paul's last sentence is close to nailing it.

FIDE won't allow 4/5 fees to escape. It always comes down to money.

Cricket:
Jardine, he of the bodyline bowling, was he not a Scot?

Lived up here for 40 odd years.
Cricket is the only sport where the majority of Scots I know genuinely do wish England well.

Football is of course slightly different.

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:21 am

Geoff Chandler wrote: Cricket:
Jardine, he of the bodyline bowling, was he not a Scot?
No, he was Indian. The only two other Indians who played for England (at a time when India was effectively part of Britain) who I can think of are Ranjitsinjhi and the Nawab of Patundi.

Mike Denness could only play for England - Scotland didn't have an international team at the time, according to wikipedia. Nowadays, Scotland do have a team. Brown and Hamilton ended up trying to play for England, and failing, and as a result, played for Scotland again when the time had elapsed for them to do so. The same will be true of Ed Joyce, I think, but for Ireland. England is having enough success with its imported South Africans (Strauss, Pietersen, Trott) at the moment.

Phil Neatherway
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Phil Neatherway » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:23 am

That of course would be the Nawab of Pataudi Senior. His son, the Nawab of Pataudi Junior (a.k.a. Mansoor Ali Khan), captained India in the 1960's. I met him once when I was about 10 ...

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:05 am

Let the joy be unconfined!

England 2 runs; Ireland 1 wicket; run rate 0.7!

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:07 am

Jardine was Indian - cheers - thought I heard he was Scottish.

Googled him - his parents were Scottish, that's where I got it from.

Found an interesting recent article about Chess in Scotland. 13th July.

Q: Which region of the UK plays the most cricket.
A: Aberdeenshire (can that possibly be correct? )

Also confirms what I said earlier about Scots and English Cricket.

http://leftbackinthechangingroom.blogsp ... tland.html

Has a Scot played for England at Chess?
David Levy (b. London) played for Scotland.
(in the 70's I played for the Scottish International C.C. team.)

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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:10 am

Unbelievable!

6-2 off 4.4, runrate 1.28! Trent Johnston is having a dream start!

And Ireland are playing without Eoin Morgan, twelfth man, match tied off course by being a plastic Englander. As of course is Joyce... And poor old Boyd Rankin is injured. So England are really playing the Irish 2nd team...

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