ECF FIDE Delegate

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Geoff Chandler
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:50 pm

E Michael White:

"I dont believe you are old enough to have bowled a googly at Jardine."

:)

Never knew Fairhurst (CBE) was born in England - learn something everyday.
(then forget it the next day!).

Thought a Scot lad down studying in England played for England.
(something niggling the grey cells....it will come back to me...)

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:41 pm

Well that was annoying, England win by two poncy Duckworth-Lewis runs.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:07 pm

"Also usually rules and laws of games are interpreted as the normal meaning of the words when the rule was written; it is not usual after rules have been written, unless the reason was minuted, to accept as an interpretation that that was what the writer had intended."

Obviously you should use what the rule actually says, but in Surrey, the late unlamented "Rules and Ethics Sub-Committee" made an extraordinarily wrong decision a couple of years ago to penalise a club for its board order, even though that board order was clearly allowed under the wording of the rules. The subcommittee excuse for making the decision was that, "we didn't mean that when we wrote the rule."

This is not unique - at a work-related meeting, I explained part of a law, and the Government representative said, "We didn't mean that when we wrote it."(!) I said, "I don't care - that's what it says! No court would uphold your version, based on that wording." (They have now changed the wording.)

I think it was Humpty-Dumpty who said, "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean." He continues to write rules and legislation!
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

John Philpott

Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by John Philpott » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:28 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote
I think it was Humpty-Dumpty who said, "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean." He continues to write rules and legislation!
Indeed! In my professional work I quite often encounter the following rule which appears in the FSA Handbook of Rules and Guidance as GEN 2.2.1R
Every provision in the Handbook must be interpreted in the light of its
purpose.
This is used from time to time by the FSA to justify a non-literal interpretation of its rules when the drafting fails to reflect its policy intention. I sometimes have great difficulty persuading clients that they are not equally entitled to adopt a non-literal interpetation when it suits them.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:13 pm

E Michael White >Is the ECF FIDE representative responsible for taking suggested FIDE rule changes by ECF members to FIDE rule conferences ? <

That would be impossible. There would be too many and some of them farcical. He is responsible for taking suggested (or ones he has thought of) FIDE Rules changes with which he agrees to FIDE. He also responsible for taking forward mandated material. There is no FIDE Rule Conference. There are meetings of the FIDE Laws and Tournament Regulations Committee of which I am secretary

Theoretically all agenda items are supposed to be via the federation to FIDE. In practice they are much more receptive to the input of individuals than the statutes suggest.

Stewart Reuben

Paul McKeown
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:21 pm

Continuing the rant about major cricketing nations picking the pockets of the minor nations, why is Dirk Nannes, international cricket career to date with the Netherlands, now playing for Oz???? :shock:

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:32 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:Continuing the rant about major cricketing nations picking the pockets of the minor nations, why is Dirk Nannes, international cricket career to date with the Netherlands, now playing for Oz???? :shock:
Well, he always wanted to play for Australia, but they wouldn't pick him. So he played for Netherlands instead. Now, Australia have picked him, so he's abandoned ship. The ICC really needs to get a grip on this.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:20 pm

Stewart,

Thanks for your clarification. It seems that the Delegate can propose to the FIDE Laws and Tournament Regulations Committee anything which he thinks is a good idea, and it is largely up to him whether he consults ECF members at large, or a selected few or none.

So let's take a completely random example - suppose the Delegate has a bee in his or her bonnet about, oh I don't know, say, whether swiss tournaments should allow repairings after some of the listed players have defaulted. His or her own view might be that it should never happen and there should be no possibility of any Federation applying any other rule, no matter how well advertised (I believe that such derogation is still permitted, though I may stand to be corrected). Suppose too that a few professional players might agree with that, but that the vast majority of members might not. There would be nothing to stop him or her from proposing it on the ECF's behalf?

E Michael White
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by E Michael White » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:33 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:There is no FIDE Rule Conference
My words were "FIDE rule conferences" plural with lower case r and c to include any FIDE organised meeting to discuss rules eg FIDE Laws and Tournament Regulations Committee.

Thanks for clarification on other points. Do you intend to continue as secretary to the FIDE committee and are you able to if not elected by the ECF ?
Stewart Reuben wrote:Theoretically all agenda items are supposed to be via the federation to FIDE. In practice they are much more receptive to the input of individuals than the statutes suggest.
This does not seem satisfactory to me as it is not seemingly working as intended, but then who am I to object ? just a long standing ECF member who pays his subscription to obtain benefits of membership of the ECF and associated sub membership of FIDE.

E Michael White
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by E Michael White » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:50 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:This is not unique - at a work-related meeting, I explained part of a law, and the Government representative said, "We didn't mean that when we wrote it."(!) I said, "I don't care - that's what it says! No court would uphold your version, based on that wording." (They have now changed the wording.)
Well done and interesting. A judge may refer to Hansard and other debate documentation notes as a means of resolving ambiguity in some laws but not much else. If you're in that situation again ask them to produce supporting documentation.
Kevin Thurlow wrote:I think it was Humpty-Dumpty who said, "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean." He continues to write rules and legislation!
Well look what happened to him. Lack of a properly regulated banking environment and Humpy-Dumpty powers and approach of the FSA who sat on the fence rather than the wall, has certainly led to a fall. The question is can things be put back together again?

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:15 pm

Jonathan Rogers >Stewart,
Thanks for your clarification. It seems that the Delegate can propose to the FIDE Laws and Tournament Regulations Committee anything which he thinks is a good idea, and it is largely up to him whether he consults ECF members at large, or a selected few or none.
So let's take a completely random example - suppose the Delegate has a bee in his or her bonnet about, oh I don't know, say, whether swiss tournaments should allow repairings after some of the listed players have defaulted. His or her own view might be that it should never happen and there should be no possibility of any Federation applying any other rule, no matter how well advertised (I believe that such derogation is still permitted, though I may stand to be corrected). Suppose too that a few professional players might agree with that, but that the vast majority of members might not. There would be nothing to stop him or her from proposing it on the ECF's behalf?<

Ah, there has been a misunderstanding, which I probably caused. E M White compounded by inventing a new term. I think he meant to FIDE Congress which takes place 11-19 October. The Laws and Tournament Regulations deals specifically with those matters and you can the find those regulations on the FIDE site, there is a committee specially for that of which Geurt Gijssen is chairman and I am secretary. It is part of the Technical Commission. If you want to understand the whole structure read the FIDE Handbook. The Swiss Regulations also come under the Technical Commission separately. The Arbiter regulations are separate from the Laws Committee, which I have always found odd and are part of the Technical Commission. David Sedgwick is involved with that. Both he and I are recognised as people who can conduct FIDE Arbiter courses.
There is absolutely nothing to prevent the FIDE Delegate make any proposal on any matter. If it was against the wishes of the ECF, he would of course be got rid of. They can mandate him to follow a policy with which he disagreed. Thus Ray Keene was mandated to vote for Campomanes, but the Board insisted on Olafsson, so he voted that way.

I am also Secretary of the Qualification Commission and
a member of the Events Commission
Gerry is responsible for Chess for the Disabled. He reports directly to the Presidential Board. I think he is also a trustee of the FIDE Permanent Invested Fund.
Dr Jana Bellin is Chairman of the Medical Commission I may have the last name wrong.)
David Jarrett is Chief Executive of FIDE.
I may have forgotten somebody.

He, both Davids, Jana and I are all appointed in our own right. All the ECF can do is oppose such an appointment. Even that can be overturned by the General Assembly, as it was in the case of Iljumzhinov in Paris in 1995.

The ECF Council is entitled to instruct the Board, or a particular officer to take a certain action. But we are all appointed to FIDE offices indepently of the ECF. Thus I have proposed a huge number of the Title Regulations without consulting anybody at all. Not all have been agreed of course. How boring if everybody agreed with me.

Thus the fact that I am standing down as Internatonal Director is irrelevant.

By the way, I have decided that I will stand as ECF Director of Marketing.

My gradual return to health is what put that in doubt.

Stewart Reuben

Sean Hewitt

Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:03 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
By the way, I have decided that I will stand as ECF Director of Marketing.

Stewart Reuben
Excellent news.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:07 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Stewart Reuben wrote: By the way, I have decided that I will stand as ECF Director of Marketing.

Stewart Reuben
Excellent news.
Beyond excellent, now we may actually get some marketing :D
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

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Greg Breed
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by Greg Breed » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:52 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:My gradual return to health...
I would say that this is the more excellent news!
Hatch End A Captain (Hillingdon League)
Harrow Captain (Middlesex League)

John Upham
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Re: ECF FIDE Delegate

Post by John Upham » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:27 pm

And returning to the subject of this thread ...

Nigel has asked me to publish this message:
You are very welcome to mention that I am currently soliciting the support of England's GMs (I only started yesterday). So far, I can state that the following have agreed to publicly back me:
1, Michael Adams
2.Stuart Conquest
3.John Emms
4.Glenn Flear
5.Stephen Gordon
6.David Howell
7.Gawain Jones
8.Raymond Keene
9.Jon Levitt
10.David Norwood
11.Dr. John Nunn
12.Jonathan Parker
13.James Plaskett
14.Michael Stean
15.William Watson
16.Peter Wells
17.Simon Williams

Incidentally that is 16 out of the first 17 replies I have received (Nigel Davies has abstained, but assured me he definitely would not be supporting Gerry Walsh). I am expecting to supplement this list over today and tomorrow. If one considers that FIDE decisions primarily concern those who play international chess and professional chessplayers in particular, it shows either a great trust in myself or a resounding lack of confidence in the incumbent. One might rhetorically ask what motions the ECF Delegate has tabled before the FIDE General Assembly during his entire period in office? Where was his murmur of protest when FIDE adversely changed the rules of the World Cup mid-cycle which led to the withdrawal of the one English participant, Michael Adams? What words has our Delegate ever uttered to protest against such abominations of inanely time-controls and two rounds a day?
It occurs to me (JEU) that the post of FIDE Delegate should be elected by those whose livelihoods are affected by FIDE and the ECU.

I really don't see that the bulk of the voters at council (who might be more interest in adjournments, adjudications and game fees) should influence this choice. Maybe I am being controversial...?
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