ECF to scrap its grading system

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:17 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:08 pm
Then convert their FIDE ratings, if you must use them at all.
The point is that except for the most active junior players where the FIDE ratings are just unstable, that ratings for juniors are unreliable and the implied order of strength against adult ratings or grades is just wrong.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:03 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:17 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:08 pm
Then convert their FIDE ratings, if you must use them at all.
The point is that except for the most active junior players where the FIDE ratings are just unstable, that ratings for juniors are unreliable and the implied order of strength against adult ratings or grades is just wrong.
That is your speculation. Detailed research has been done, and globally there is no evidence to back it up. If you think it is wrong, do feel free to produce your own.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:07 pm

I think there are a fair number of players in England who predominantly or solely play online. I could be wrong...

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:32 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:07 pm
I think there are a fair number of players in England who predominantly or solely play online. I could be wrong...
I'm sure there are, but I am asking whether they can be distinguished by their questionable ECF grades.

Those who play solely online don't matter for this purpose, because they will not impinge on the system anyway.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:35 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:32 pm
I'm sure there are, but I am asking whether they can be distinguished by their questionable ECF grades.
It's their FIDE rating that is the concern. The point being that unlike many National Elo systems, the International Elo relies solely on k factors to correct ratings that have used obsolete results to estimate the strength of a player.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 pm

My spies tell me that they suspect the intention is to get everyone to submit data through the "official" process, presumably a bit like Chessresults.com. Assuming ECF just uses the FIDE system, they could just use Chessresults.com! If clubs (or anyone else) don't submit results like that, the results will not be graded and the ECF attitude will be "Who cares?" The few remaining clubs having graded internal events might find games are not graded. Of course, players who are only interested in playing internal club games (and my experience is this is a non-trivial number) will save money by not having to be ECF members.

The intention also seems to be to do away with graders and just get results from tournament organizers. I guess some nice people will still submit results for others.

But obviously whatever is planned will be explained in exquisite detail by ECF in advance and discussed at the appropriate meeting.

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Brian Valentine » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:56 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 pm
My spies tell me that they suspect the intention is to get everyone to submit data through the "official" process, presumably a bit like Chessresults.com. Assuming ECF just uses the FIDE system, they could just use Chessresults.com! If clubs (or anyone else) don't submit results like that, the results will not be graded and the ECF attitude will be "Who cares?" The few remaining clubs having graded internal events might find games are not graded. Of course, players who are only interested in playing internal club games (and my experience is this is a non-trivial number) will save money by not having to be ECF members.

The intention also seems to be to do away with graders and just get results from tournament organizers. I guess some nice people will still submit results for others.

But obviously whatever is planned will be explained in exquisite detail by ECF in advance and discussed at the appropriate meeting.
There might be better sources than your spies amongst Redhill Alumni!

I would see the current official process being modernised rather than something more sinister. Club internal events do present a challenge and I think both the grading system and clubs will each have to bend a bit to get monthly grading to work.

I expect to recommend moving to an Elo system, but amended for issues we find under pure FIDE in an English context.

Brian Valentine
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J T Melsom
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:25 pm

The Wycombe club event generally consists of five or six rounds, manually paired and then sent to our tame grader at the appropriate time. At present we have completed half of the fixtures in the second round. I note from the grading record of a former school-mate that his club event is far more substantial, but the way it is recorded in the database suggests that grader is already reporting on a round by round basis. I guess moving to automation of the pairings would lead more naturally to prompt submission so we might not have to bend too far. I am however still a bit puzzled about the demand for these grades, as I don't yet see too many competitions giving them sufficient weight to justify the effort. I suspect we will have a sub set of players interested in the frequent numbers, another subset for whom it will be irritating noise - I know of at least one team captain who doesn't like the six monthly changes as he feels he should take account of the changes even though the rules don't require it - and a larger set for whom it will be a matter of indifference.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:58 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:56 pm
Club internal events do present a challenge and I think both the grading system and clubs will each have to bend a bit to get monthly grading to work.
Have you considered teaching the grading system how to read pgn files? It would only have to read the header and those submitting results would only have to create dummy games. The point is that software that can create pgn files is in wide use, so no need to reinvent wheels of file formats.

Provided you've got Congresses organised to submit on a timely basis, I would suspect monthly league and club results could just be incorporated in bulk six monthly. That was the way the FIDE system handled the 4NCL for a while even after it had moved to more frequent lists.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:19 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:58 pm
Have you considered teaching the grading system how to read pgn files? It would only have to read the header and those submitting results would only have to create dummy games. The point is that software that can create pgn files is in wide use, so no need to reinvent wheels of file formats.
Eggs and grandma comes to mind. However, the thinking of those thinking about this already provides a rather more varied, wholesome, and easier to prepare dish. Though Roger will of course be critical of it, for that is his self-appointed function in life, the ECF League Management System provides a far better interface. I've been using it for three years now - which as it only started this year is pretty good going.

Reg Clucas
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:30 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:58 pm

Have you considered teaching the grading system how to read pgn files? It would only have to read the header and those submitting results would only have to create dummy games. The point is that software that can create pgn files is in wide use, so no need to reinvent wheels of file formats.
But would any new system actually require the reinvention of file formats? If not then the current text files are just as easy (or easier??) to create as PGN files, even if done 'by hand'.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:33 am

Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:19 am
ECF League Management System provides a far better interface.
Apologies for my almost total ignorance on this subject, but is this the system used by the London Chess League and others around here, or something different?

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:39 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:33 am
Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:19 am
ECF League Management System provides a far better interface.
Apologies for my almost total ignorance on this subject, but is this the system used by the London Chess League and others around here, or something different?
I'm fairly sure that London, like Manchester and many others, uses John Upham's system that predates the ECF one
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:56 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:19 am
the ECF League Management System provides a far better interface.
Does it accommodate the input of any ad hoc game between two players?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:17 pm

"I would see the current official process being modernised rather than something more sinister. Club internal events do present a challenge and I think both the grading system and clubs will each have to bend a bit to get monthly grading to work. "

I have also received an outright denial from someone who ought to know. I am quite happy to accept that what I reported is not official ECF policy. However, there may be someone who is going to propose it... I thought it useful to get views ahead of time!

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