London Central YMCA (aka CentYMCA) Chess Club

[IM Jack Rudd]

I've seen where these gun ownership arguments go, and it's never pretty. May I suggest that the thread should stay on topic and that we all leave this subject well alone?

A good point. May I request that all future discussions on gun ownership be relocated to the Not Chess section?

[George Szaszvari]

Sorry Ian,

Good natured bad blood was a frequent visitor at CentYMCA, especially at the bridge table. I'm just trying to come to terms with the new Gung-ho George.

The bridge table! Oh yeah, remember Remi Tatur? The master bridge player who was also no mean chessplayer?

[George Szaszvari]

Finland has a higher rate of private firearms ownership than the USA, but if you ever come to live here and apply for a firearms licence, George, then you'd better hope the local police don't connect you to your recent contributions to this discussion. You jumped from chess in London to "... shooting guns! Yippee kai yay!" and quite quickly warmed to the subject of the usual kidnappings and shootings and the idea of arranging to meet up and go blast off a few hundred rounds!. Add to this a certain view of incompetence and corruption everywhere, official terrorism and the malaise of public servants becoming self serving parasites, and I reckon you've ruined your chances of a successful firearms licence application and instead bought a ticket to regular searches of home and vehicle.

Shoot a burglar in Finland and you will rightly go to prison. If you interpret this to mean that criminals have more rights than you, then you need to attend a course in basic civics.

Jumped? Warmed? Not a Guardian reader? Civics? You are better than that, Daryl! You'll know that it is necessary
for a gun owner to practice and that cannot be done without blasting off rounds. It would be irresponsible to not
frequently train and practice. Yes, it can be very difficult to make that mentioned quantum leap, even for some
Americans, so I'm not surprised by your attitude. Simon Spivack made a comment about being tired of living in
London. To repeat, there is good and bad everywhere, but I wasn't tired of my birthplace, London, per se, but rather
miss a lot of positive things about the place and many people there, especially the chess clubs, but there were also
some negative experiences while living there, some worse than others. We all have them and, offhand, I recall at least
two other chess players at London CentYMCA that needed to get away, at least for a while! I could well be living
in one of several countries right now, some favorites of mine being Greece, Germany, and possibly Hungary... a great
place for chess, and horse riding, but that weird Finno-Ugrian language! It just happens to be this part of the States
because I married here. Sure, it is VERY different, and interesting. We'll probably retire somewhere a little cooler (but
not the arctic circle) since the brutal desert heat, though novel at first, gets old after a few years. The other personal
stuff, which that superb local government ombudsman helped me out with, destroyed my involvement in chess, and
a lot of other things back in the late 90s. The way to deal with that is to expose it through journalism and political
activism.

No licensing here, yet, just an FBI criminal background and legal status check. One needs to meet victims that
actually survived burglaries here and check the list that didn't. This ain't civilized Finland, this is the Wild West,
pardner. Yes, it is common for Europeans to ridicule the Hollywood image of the supposedly trigger happy Westerner
but the yippee kai yay Western cowboy cry is alive and well here, especially in mounted cowboy action shooting!
Instead of assuming an air of superiority, and mocking, why don't you visit and find out for yourself? It's a great
holiday destination and you could even blast off a few hundred rounds with me. I do so, anyway, every few weeks,
and I know you'll enjoy it!! This is an open invitation to any chessplayer friend of mine from the past. Hey, we could
even play some chess, but I'll be pretty rusty!

BTW that Russian chess couple that stayed with you after the '86 Karpov-Kasparov match. I saw a while back that
they settled in Kansas. Any communication?

[George Szaszvari]

I've seen where these gun ownership arguments go, and it's never pretty. May I suggest that the thread should stay on topic and that we all leave this subject well alone?

A good point. May I request that all future discussions on gun ownership be relocated to the Not Chess section?

Point taken, even if it is historical London CentYMCA members mentioning it. Perhaps flaming
attempts to diminish and/or embarrass a poster should be considered off topic too?

[Simon Spivack]

I'm not convinced that my late maternal grandfather, who was a pacifist in the Great War, would have approved. Yes, I know you are partly kidding, however, after my most recent rounds with the barber surgeons, it would be purely random what target I'd hit in any instance.

Actually, I'm not kidding, I've had several visits by old friends from Dulwich Prep where I used to coach (I handed the job over to the capable hands of Allan Norris when I married and emigrated,) but you'll have to explain the "barber surgeons".

I have problems with my eyes even after several rounds with the quacks. In other words, it is a brave man who would be anywhere near me when holding a gun, even if I wasn't trying to shoot him!

George, Jack is one of our moderators, a good one, IMO. So I'll stop trading shots on shots and yank (sorry, I couldn't resist that, now that you are a Yank ) the topic back to chess.

Elsewhere Clive Hill mentioned running a chess café. If Clive could recreate Bayswater Chess Club, it would be a blessing. He was talking of a site north of Baker Street. That to me means something like Park Road, where the Regents Park Mosque is. The London Business School is also to be found on that road. There are some shops there. A chess café is unlikely to be viable per se. To be bohemian and survive, it would need a non-chess element. You may not know that the London Underground are doing away with station staff and encouraging Londoners to use Oyster Cards (a fancy name for plastic travel cards). Many newsagents have facilities for selling credits to be applied to these cards. Why shouldn't a chess café do the same? It should be good for cash flow and might encourage students from the LBS to drop in to "top-up" their cards. Of course such an address could well be expensive, it's not far from the US Ambassador's official residence. However, it is reasonably central, which is vital; and within walking distance (famous last words) of Baker Street Underground. There are also many buses. What do you think?

[George Szaszvari]

I'm not convinced that my late maternal grandfather, who was a pacifist in the Great War, would have approved. Yes, I know you are partly kidding, however, after my most recent rounds with the barber surgeons, it would be purely random what target I'd hit in any instance.

Actually, I'm not kidding, I've had several visits by old friends from Dulwich Prep where I used to coach (I handed the job over to the capable hands of Allan Norris when I married and emigrated,) but you'll have to explain the "barber surgeons".

I have problems with my eyes even after several rounds with the quacks. In other words, it is a brave man who would be anywhere near me when holding a gun, even if I wasn't trying to shoot him!

George, Jack is one of our moderators, a good one, IMO. So I'll stop trading shots on shots and yank (sorry, I couldn't resist that, now that you are a Yank ) the topic back to chess.

I'm not actually a "yank", I'm still British, living here as a permanent resident. That could change soon, though...
You'd be safe at a firing range. Safety measures are pretty strict. Everything goes downrange in one direction, etc...
unless you're doing "tactical" training.

Elsewhere Clive Hill mentioned running a chess café. If Clive could recreate Bayswater Chess Club, it would be a blessing. He was talking of a site north of Baker Street. That to me means something like Park Road, where the Regents Park Mosque is. The London Business School is also to be found on that road. There are some shops there. A chess café is unlikely to be viable per se. To be bohemian and survive, it would need a non-chess element. You may not know that the London Underground are doing away with station staff and encouraging Londoners to use Oyster Cards (a fancy name for plastic travel cards). Many newsagents have facilities for selling credits to be applied to these cards. Why shouldn't a chess café do the same? It should be good for cash flow and might encourage students from the LBS to drop in to "top-up" their cards. Of course such an address could well be expensive, it's not far from the US Ambassador's official residence. However, it is reasonably central, which is vital; and within walking distance (famous last words) of Baker Street Underground. There are also many buses. What do you think?

Aahh, I've often dreamed of having a chess cafe here, too! It could be something like Ali's old vegetarian place near
Chalk Farm. I don't know whether it closed down after he died of a heart attack. Yes, it would have to have something
other than chess to survive. I used to work in Baker Street many years ago, and the whole Edgware Road and
Marylebone area is something of a cherished memory. I was born in St Mary's in Praed St, worked for the telephone
office that used to be in Praed St, lived in Paddington Green for a while (anyone remember the trolleybus terminus
that used to be there?).... you've got me going now.... I'd say it could be a good area for a chess cafe. When you say
Jack is a moderator, do you mean Zarko?

[Simon Spivack]

Aahh, I've often dreamed of having a chess cafe here, too! It could be something like Ali's old vegetarian place near
Chalk Farm. I don't know whether it closed down after he died of a heart attack.

It wasn't there the last time I was near the Roundhouse. I always thought the café was at the wrong end of Camden Market. There have always seemed to be more souls at the Camden Town end. That eatery was rather pricey; furthermore, as a staunch upholder of the rule of law, I am shocked by you; Camden Market was well known for knifing and the other thing, the other thing happened at Chequers, one of several such establishments.

... the whole Edgware Road and Marylebone area is something of a cherished memory. I was born in St Mary's in Praed St,

I'm fond of it too. I was born at home, not far from St. Mary's.

When you say Jack is a moderator, do you mean Zarko?

No, I mean Jack Rudd. The chap who diplomatically suggested, at the top of page six of this thread, that another forum would be more suitable for discussing guns. As a moderator, he has the power to edit and delete what appears on these fora, although he uses it sparingly.

[George Szaszvari]

Aahh, I've often dreamed of having a chess cafe here, too! It could be something like Ali's old vegetarian place near
Chalk Farm. I don't know whether it closed down after he died of a heart attack.

It wasn't there the last time I was near the Roundhouse. I always thought the café was at the wrong end of Camden Market. There have always seemed to be more souls at the Camden Town end. That eatery was rather pricey; furthermore, as a staunch upholder of the rule of law, I am shocked by you; Camden Market was well known for knifing and the other thing, the other thing happened at Chequers, one of several such establishments.

The other thing? I only went to Chequers a handful of times, to socialize and eat mainly. I recall Bob Feather played
blitz there and didn't Andy Martin like to play backgammon there, too? And there were the all night blitz tournaments.
But it wasn't really my area. As for the crime my impression was that anywhere outside of Camberwell and Brixton
was a lot safer in those days.

... the whole Edgware Road and Marylebone area is something of a cherished memory. I was born in St Mary's in Praed St,

I'm fond of it too. I was born at home, not far from St. Mary's.

We'll have to do a nostalgia tour of the area one day to visit our surviving favourite haunts and chat to the old timers.
I dropped into one or two familiar places occasionally in the 80s and 90s and it could be a spooky experience (eerie
music) ... having lived around that part of town (Ladbroke Grove, Sutherland Ave, Shirland Rd, Paddington Green, etc)
before the Marylebone flyover was built much has changed, but if the old Church St market is still there then that could
be a more affordable area to think about setting up some kind of bohemian chess club in the style of Bayswater and old
London CentYMCA. You might not get as many LBS students (would such types be that interested in chess, anyway?)
but you might get the real chess bohemians like Robert Eames, and some others I can think of...

When you say Jack is a moderator, do you mean Zarko?

No, I mean Jack Rudd. The chap who diplomatically suggested, at the top of page six of this thread, that another forum would be more suitable for discussing guns. As a moderator, he has the power to edit and delete what appears on these fora, although he uses it sparingly.

Age and marriage have mellowed me out (nothing like as "gung ho" as I used to be, contrary to what has been suggested)
to the point that I really do appreciate diplomacy these days. Jack sounds like a sensible fellow.

[CliveHill]

"Elsewhere Clive Hill mentioned running a chess café."

Hi guys! The chess cafe idea is on the back burner at present (a) because the catering contact I was hoping to work with has dropped out and (b) because I am still juggling my life as an untenured academic (think FM with a relatively low rating) which is always 'hairy' at this time of year. New terms, new students etc.

Hoping to start working for Chess in Schools and Communities in the new year as a means of adding to the dubious income I receive from my 'portfolio career' - hate that euphemism! - so if I finally get my life straight in 2011 I will hope to start making new moves on the cafe front at that point.

All the best,

Clive

[Simon Spivack]

I hope things work out for you. You will encounter familiar faces in the Chess in Schools and Communities project.

[George Szaszvari]

Yeh, I remember that trip to Cambridge...

I have no doubt at all that Richard W ( two chicken curries,no rice) O Brien, could provide further details.

Aaahh, food! A great memory helper! Gerald Bennett (Cutty Sark Grand Prix winner) the vegetarian, liked curry houses
too, the egg biriany being a popular choice for him. Mike Wills religiously ordered the gammon steak with the slice of
pineapple on top at that cheap Italian place a few doors down Endell St. Then there was the hamburger joint around
the corner on Shaftesbury Ave that CentYMCA chessplayers must have kept going for years, and of course, Chinatown
(Sun Luck was a favourite) where I devoured many a Cantonese prawn dish, baked crab, or roast pork with Pierre Lunais
(who preferred the thick noodles to rice) and John Yeo. BTW in my travels, I have yet to find better Chinese food than
available in London's Chinatown (although I haven't been to China yet!)... Dave Farndon (French Winawer specialist)
went to Hong Kong a few years before the handover: did he come back to chess on returning (assuming he did return)?
There are a few Indo-Pak curry houses out here in the low desert, one I know of outstanding quality, but there are
plenty more Chinese, Thai and Vietnamese food houses, as well as the ubiquitous Mexican places. The Vietnamese place
on the NW corner of Camelback and 17th Drive is easily the best value if you have a big appetite and are on a tight
budget! The thing I really miss is the good ol' British Isles staple of Fish 'n Chips. One Brit (from the Windsor area) set
up a fish 'n chip business here calling it "The Codfather", but even if his chips (cut from fresh potatoes, instead of the
frozen thin "fries" so typical in the USA) are the best around here, his tiny pieces of fish, tailored for the unknowing
locals, makes me hanker for "The Fishcotheque" opposite Waterloo Stn, or the "Sea Fresh" south of Victoria Stn, as well
as a few other favorite places of old.

[George Szaszvari]

Elsewhere Clive Hill mentioned running a chess café. If Clive could recreate Bayswater Chess Club, it would be a blessing. He was talking of a site north of Baker Street. That to me means something like Park Road, where the Regents Park Mosque is. The London Business School is also to be found on that road. There are some shops there. A chess café is unlikely to be viable per se. To be bohemian and survive, it would need a non-chess element. You may not know that the London Underground are doing away with station staff and encouraging Londoners to use Oyster Cards (a fancy name for plastic travel cards). Many newsagents have facilities for selling credits to be applied to these cards. Why shouldn't a chess café do the same? It should be good for cash flow and might encourage students from the LBS to drop in to "top-up" their cards. Of course such an address could well be expensive, it's not far from the US Ambassador's official residence. However, it is reasonably central, which is vital; and within walking distance (famous last words) of Baker Street Underground. There are also many buses. What do you think?

Well, good luck to Clive in the meantime, and it would be great if if he can, in due course, make it work out at the
desired site. Just one thing strikes me about the bohemian nature of the now defunct Bayswater and London CentYMCA
clubs, also Hackney, King's Head, and some other London clubs to some extent, is how they were not about being
successful in any business sense, and how they thrived when they had a free, or, at least cheap, venue to meet.
Perhaps this "down market" aspect to those clubs attracted the bohemian types that graced those places. Being able
to just wander in and play without spending any real money was important to that culture. I do know, however, that
there were (still are?) some successful cafes where chessplayers regularly played blitz in Amsterdam, although I'm not
sure how a club with team matches could work, unless they had an upstairs room, or similar. I used to visit Albert Toby
(who worked for New in Chess at the time) and we would sometimes hang out in the Twee Klaveren (two of clubs) cafe
and that was (still is?) a successful high street business where informal chess was played a lot. Andy Martin spent some
time in the Netherlands and might know more about this. The Twee Klaveren also sold beer, food, had other board games,
so if Clive can get over there it might be worth checking out to help shape some workable ideas. Good luck!

[George Szaszvari]

Following my enforced retirement from chess in 1983 (University College London and I differed on my time management techniques ) I learnt that my old club, London Central YMCA (aka CentYMCA) has ceased to be and possibly morphed into Barbican.

Does anyone have knowledge of the history of this great club and its members? I saw a mention of Mike W Wills recently and he was a leading light during my membership (1978 - 1983).

I have a copy of "The CentYMCA Story" which contains much information about London League and Middlesex League chess in the 1970s.

Any contributions would be most welcome

A few more characters to reminisce about are: Mike Bulford, Mike Mouzouros and Nimrod Gargya.

I just learned of Pierre Lunais' passing. That guy was a big part of my life for quite a few years. I gradually saw
less and less of him in the late 90s, as I did everyone else in chess, but Pierre was one of the few people in UK
to phone me when I moved out to the USA (Nimrod Gargya was another one... )

[andrew martin]

Greetings to George and all other ex-YM members and friends. Reading this thread reinforces my impression that of all English clubs in the 70's and 80's, London Central YMCA was the greatest, for many reasons. I made many memorable friendships during that period. Subsequently, perhaps only Wood Green comes close in terms of cameraderie, although of course WG are the strongest English club side ever over a period of decades.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

No-one could be a member of every club in the 70s and 80s, and hence no-one is in a position to state which was the greatest. For me, Hackney Chess Club in the late 80s was perfect. Loads of chess players of my ability or slightly stronger, everyone went for a beer and curry after a match and, most importantly, there were lots of quirky characters (even by chess player standards) who were great company and who taught me that you don't have to be normal to survive. No club I've belonged to, before or since, measure up to Hackney.