Playing opponents born the longest time apart

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E Michael White
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by E Michael White » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:43 pm

I joined a club in South Manchester in about 1963. Some of the members were well into their eighties. At least 1 member said he fought in the second Boer war which was about 1900. He would have had to have been born 1882 or earlier. More recently I played a junior in a local Blitz, who was born in 2005. That gives an interval of about 123 years. I cannot prove the older player's age but one I can prove is that, in about 1975, I played Dr James Aitken who was born in 1908 as that game was published in the Gloucestershire echo at the time. That would give a much shorter interval of 97 years with the same junior player above.

We should probably be looking for figures of about 120 years plus for this purpose.
Last edited by E Michael White on Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Mick Norris
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:08 pm

I played in 4NCL against a lad born in 2011

When I was at school I was a member of a chess club and played someone born in the 1890s I think

So, I would agree that 120 years plus is the target
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David Shepherd
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:03 pm

Sorry, I know it probably isn't relevant - unless they played chess- but given the recent US election, one fact that I find difficult to comprehend is that Harrisson Ruffin Tyler(aged 91), the grandson of the the 10th US president John Tyler, is still alive 230 years after his grandfather was born.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:51 am

I Get the idea now Justin, thought you meant greatest age difference between players in a single game.

Leonard was mentioned above. I was looking for Aitken data and Aitken played in 1948 British at London.

Noticed Leonard played in the premier and one of his opponents was Edward Guthlac Sergeant who born in 1881.

https://www.saund.co.uk/britbase/pgn/19 ... iewer.html

Morphy numbers may figure in this.

Leonard (who has a Morphy number of 3 ) will be able to tell you if he has played anyone born before 1881.
Sergeant (Morphy number two) only came to mind because there was a recent piece on him in the history section.
Leonard will also be able to tell us his youngest opponent. You never know it might be another record for him.

I'm one of the 1,000's of Morphy 4's having clashed swords with Oliver Penrose a few times.

(not counting consultation games - Staunton's Morphy number is -1 :D )

E Michael White
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by E Michael White » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:45 pm

Well I checked out James Sherwin to see if in his long chess career he has played two players born more than 120 years apart and came up with these 2 games.

Firstly in 1951 according to my database in an event in Syracuse he played against Marcel Duchamp, the French artist and chess player. Duchamp was born in 1887.

Secondly in the 2019 rapidplay event at the British Championships he played against Manvith Sandhu who was born in 2007.

That makes a gap of 120 years unless the months and days in the birthdates fall in the wrong places.

This is probably the most likely combination: a long playing player like James who is happy to play league or Rapidplay late on in his chess career, as that is where you are most likely to be paired against a young player. Other players like Michael Basman and Michael Franklin might also be worth checking out but I think I've lost interest now.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:31 am

It's harder than one might think! I spent no little time going through the chessgames.com records of players with notably long careers (e.g. Bronstein, Korchnoi, Lasker) in the hope or expectation that they would have played a veteran at the start of their career and a junior towards the end, but it's not like that. Also, even if it is like that you don't necessarily know, because you can be looking at pages of games against obscure Soviet or American players from a hundred years ago and without checking them all you don't know if they were twenty or eighty at the time.

Also, before a certain point games by juniors don't really exist.
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E Michael White
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by E Michael White » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:59 am

Whilst waiting for my cup of tea to cool, I looked at my database again and found several other James Sherwin opponents, born before 1900. The earliest born was - Lewis J I Isaacs, who was born in 1878. However we are unfortunate in that he was born on 21 Dec, meaning that the gap is more likely to be 128 years rather than 129.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:16 am

E Michael White wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:59 am
However we are unfortunate in that he was born on 21 Dec, meaning that the gap is more likely to be 128 years rather than 129.
That, Mr White, is being simply greedy!

John Moore
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by John Moore » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:44 am

E Michael White wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:45 pm
Well I checked out James Sherwin to see if in his long chess career he has played two players born more than 120 years apart and came up with these 2 games.

Firstly in 1951 according to my database in an event in Syracuse he played against Marcel Duchamp, the French artist and chess player. Duchamp was born in 1887.

Secondly in the 2019 rapidplay event at the British Championships he played against Manvith Sandhu who was born in 2007.

That makes a gap of 120 years unless the months and days in the birthdates fall in the wrong places.

This is probably the most likely combination: a long playing player like James who is happy to play league or Rapidplay late on in his chess career, as that is where you are most likely to be paired against a young player. Other players like Michael Basman and Michael Franklin might also be worth checking out but I think I've lost interest now.
Interestingly, the game Duchamp-Sherwin (Duchamp was White) can be found on page 334 of Chess Review 1951.

John Moore
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by John Moore » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:52 am

I should have added that in that 1951 tournament in Syracuse, Sherwin also played another veteran, Roy T Black who was born in February 1888 and most famous for having a win against Capablanca.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:11 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:31 am
It's harder than one might think! I spent no little time going through the chessgames.com records of players with notably long careers (e.g. Bronstein, Korchnoi, Lasker) in the hope or expectation that they would have played a veteran at the start of their career and a junior towards the end, but it's not like that. Also, even if it is like that you don't necessarily know, because you can be looking at pages of games against obscure Soviet or American players from a hundred years ago and without checking them all you don't know if they were twenty or eighty at the time.

Also, before a certain point games by juniors don't really exist.
Well as I said upthread over a century for Korchnoi (Levenfish-Caruana) is quite easily confirmable.

A detailed search would almost certainly confirm he played people younger than that too, not so sure about older but it is perfectly possible.

A related question - who is the only person confirmed to have played both Capablanca and Kasparov in tournaments?
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John Moore
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by John Moore » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:20 pm

Miguel Najdorf, I rather think.

Mick Norris
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:36 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:36 pm
ChessBase has one for 92 Years.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/age-diffe ... -92-years-
Not sure if that was a set-up, rather than a competitive match

Locally, we had:

Thursday, 11th November 2004.
Bury & Rochdale League - Division B
at Christ Church School, Crawley Way, Chadderton, Oldham, England.
3Cs "B" v Heywood "B"
White - Mitchell Burke (3Cs) (Born 30 Nov 1992 - Aged 11 years, 346 days)
Black - Antonin Weleminsky (Heywood) (Born 6 June 1908 - Aged 96 years, 158 days)

Age Difference of 85 YEARS, 177 DAYS

The same two players then met again 14 days later as follows:

Thursday, 25th November 2004
Bury & Rochdale League - Division B Knockout Cup (1st Round)
at Christ Church School, Crawley Way, Chadderton, Oldham, England
3Cs "B" v Heywood "B"
White - Mitchell Burke (3Cs)
Black - Antonin Weleminsky (Heywood)

Antonin won the first game and Mitchell the second, so certainly competitive

I'm not even sure that's a local record, as Antonin may have played someone younger than Mitchell

Apologies to Justin for going off-topic
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Playing opponents born the longest time apart

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:51 pm

John Moore wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:20 pm
Miguel Najdorf, I rather think.
Correct answer :)

Reshevsky was astonishingly close to qualifying (as a 70 year old) for the 1982 Moscow Interzonal, which would have meant him also doing so.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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