Nice 74

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 12, 2021 2:06 pm

John Clarke wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:10 pm
I once flicked through a copy of Becoming A Grandmaster (couldn't do more: it was in a library where I wasn't a registered borrower; never come across another since). Felt vaguely irritated that there was no account of RDK's early, pre-international career, which for my money would have been at least as interesting as what came after. (I have the same view of many other autobiographies - the best bits are usually the struggles to get established in the subject's chosen field. Once through that, they too often degenerate into a series of superficialities: "I met so-and-so; we did this and that", etc.)

If the other posters here are right about the recycling, that would partly explain why this important information is missing - lack of time or inclination to write it from scratch.
Inclination, I should think: it's a real Ray hallmark that nothing is ever thorough.

(I mean it's quite a nice book to read, I liked it a lot as a kid. But it's bits and pieces, and probably borrowed bits and pieces at that.)
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 12, 2021 6:20 pm

Ha ha, good old Ray, never lets you down

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And the original, from the BCM November 1973.

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 12, 2021 6:33 pm

RDK must have had an excellent memory or system of filing past work even before the advent of computers. If writing annotations several years apart, the ideas might well be the same, but not the exact words describing them.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 12, 2021 6:43 pm

Well presumably it only takes a minute or two to find a magazine on the shelf (or in a cardboard box, as I have just been doing).
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Alistair Campbell
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Alistair Campbell » Wed May 12, 2021 11:07 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 1:36 pm
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:43 pm
just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
One of the Scottish players once sat out the remaining Olympiad rounds to safeguard an IM Norm. There was some criticism at the time, but it was defended on the grounds that an additional Scottish IM was of more value to chess in Scotland than improving a few places in a mid table finish. I don't quite recall when, but probably at least forty years ago.
If it was 40 plus years ago, it would have been before my time, but I might have guessed Levy or Pritchett, as those were our only IMs for years (excluding Fairhurst).

A quick squint at the record suggests that you may be referring to Nice 74 when Craig appeared to sit out the last 4 matches for some reason. I think he got the IM title in 1976 so possibly this (1974) was a norm (and he got another one at a zonal?)

I have suggested before that Olympiad teams should have pre-set goals (consistent with their governing body’s overall strategy) and thus it would be clear beforehand to what extent individual performance would be risked for the greater good of the team (and vice-versa) but this suggestion has not really gained traction.

In particular, I am on record as being willing to trade SCO team results for a norm (or norm chances).

Looking back to Nice, Scotland finished 29th. It might be reasonable to suggest that had Craig played an extra two games we might have picked up an extra 1 game point…and still finished 29th. If this is the occasion you have in mind, then securing the norm seems entirely justified.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu May 13, 2021 1:52 pm

Hi Justin,

Odds on you would find that one, It's Ray's favourite, it was the very last game he published in 'The Spectator.' (different notes)

How's your Russian? As well as the BCM it also, 'apparently' appeared in '64' at Petrosian's request.
I have some '64's' from that era I'll see if I can find it when I have absolutely nothing else better to do.

BCM probably shrugged their shoulders, But the Russians! Has Ray Re-Hashed Russia?
What came first BCM or '64' who has re-hashed from who?

It's here as well with what looks like BCM notes ( surely now I get a Ray Keene's spotters badge? )

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessga ... 36&kpage=1

Ray adds the '64' details in the chit-chat. Read on in that as he gets a wee bitty upset with the punters thinking it is a different Kovacevic.

That is a wonderful Bishop sac, Rook sac, Queen sac mate in the notes.
Which Ray must have seen when going for it....fully deserves to be seen again.

RDK v the real Vladimir Kovacevic, Amsterdam 1973.


Andy Stoker
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Andy Stoker » Thu May 13, 2021 6:28 pm

BCM April 1976 p161 - Correspondence from CW Pritchett, in response to a review of Nice 1974 by WH Cozens in the January issue: "Either your reviewer WH Cozens is as naïve as he implies, or he is being snide to the point of tastelessness in his sarcastic reference.... to my achieving an IM norm "at the expense of my country.... it [is] common practice ....also in Scotland's case particularly advisable..."
WH Cozens replies "I am sorry that my review has upset one of your readers.... The remark.... was aimed at the system..."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 7:48 am

In 1974 Bonner, the Scottish fifth board and captain, had already had to go home early due to illness, so Pritchett sitting out meant that none of the oher players could take a rest in the last four rounds. (I say this just for information - I have no reason to believe there was any resentment of the decision, in contrast with the rather different situation regarding the England team two years later.)
Nick Ivell wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:07 am
Was that Craig Pritchett?

I seem to recall, at one of the Olympiads, that he got a winning position against Karpov of all people...
Yes indeed.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 am

Anyway the notes in Becoming A Grandmaster to the Haifa games against Jansson and Donoso - pages 52 to 58 in that book - are largely copied, with some omissions, additions and amendments, from the notes that appear in the February 1977 British Chess Magazine, pages 50 to 54. If that seems like a lot of pages, it's because the Donoso notes include a long passage relating to a dispute that occurred, and I think this account is repeated almost word-for word ("he then signed" becomes "signing" and there are some spelling revisions).

I do not seem to have the BCM's review of the book (I only have five issues for 1977 and one for 1978) and I'm intrigued to know what they thought of the propriety of Keene and Batsford selling their customers notes for which BCM subscribers had already paid.
Last edited by JustinHorton on Fri May 14, 2021 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 8:31 am

Ha ha and the notes to Keene-Jansa on pages 52-3 on Becoming a Grandmaster are actually word-for-word the same (with an addition after resignation) as those appearing in Batsford's own Olympiad book (authors Ray and Dave of course) on pages 129 to 130.

As it goes, these notes are, in the earlier book at least, attributed to Keene and Jansa

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but on Chessgames, Vlastmil Jansa has been omitted along with the source.
Last edited by JustinHorton on Fri May 14, 2021 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 9:02 am

The BCM for March 1974 provides the source for the notes of Ray's games against Stean (pages 102-3) and Tal (103-4) which appear, word-for-word but with no original mentioned, in Becoming A Grandmaster, pages 85-6 and 86-7 respectively.

(Curiously, in the BCM those games bookend one against Timman which is also in Becoming A Grandmaster, but with almost completely different notes.)

Meanwhile anybody who had paid for the BCM for July of the same year, with Ray's notes to a game against Penrose on pages 247-8, and then paid for Becoming A Grandmaster, will have found they had paid twice for the same notes to the same game. (Pages 89-92 with, I think, one cut.)
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri May 14, 2021 12:42 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:02 am
Meanwhile anybody who had paid for the BCM for July of the same year, with Ray's notes to a game against Penrose on pages 247-8, and then paid for Becoming A Grandmaster, will have found they had paid twice for the same notes to the same game (pages 89-92) with, I think, one cut.
Hi Justin,

What alternative do you suggest, the page in the book stays blank and refers the reader to the said copy of a BCM.

'Becoming a Grandmaster' is a good book, it has a few games with the same notes from other sources. Big deal.
Looking at the notes I cannot really see how Ray could have improved them. Perhaps you could suggest a new variation
or add in something that will say the same thing but in a different way.

Also have you considered some (include me on this) are perfectly happy and do not mind having two copies of the same game
with the same notes, one in a magazine and one in a book. I'd certainly be a tad jacked off if Ray had said something like:
'The game v Tal is one of my best, you will find it on page xx, of the March 1974 BCM.

Yes a wee nod to a previous source is the accepted way but it's not obligatory. Ray has chosen not to.
And that has always been my stance regarding Ray or any author for that matter.

Of course I am disappointed with the needless cut and pasting, the intro to the 2019 final for instance. Why?
But in the great scheme of things I think there are more important things to concern yourself with than what
Ray Keene has done (or not not done ) when writing what I consider is a good book. One of his best in fact.

But each to his own, you appear to be enjoying yourself.
I too like enjoying myself, Ray gets a 're-hash ' joke whenever the mood takes,
but I've not dedicated my whole life to cracking them, that would be very tedious....speaking of which?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 1:14 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:42 pm
Yes a wee nod to a previous source is the accepted way but it's not obligatory
This will surprise anybody familiar with the concept of copyright
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:42 pm

What alternative do you suggest
What do you think I suggest
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri May 14, 2021 2:41 pm

"This will surprise anybody familiar with the concept of copyright"

Publishing an entire page of a book or magazine breaches copyright!

As for the specific instance, it does depend on the owner of the copyright when an article is published in BCM - if it's the author, they could then re-use it in a later work. Obviously, it is then very desirable to say, "I've already published this in BCM". I would think it worthwhile to check any annotations though...

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri May 14, 2021 2:48 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 2:41 pm
"This will surprise anybody familiar with the concept of copyright"

Publishing an entire page of a book or magazine breaches copyright!
No it doesn't, because there is also such a thing as "fair use", the display or quotation of excerpts for legitimate purposes.
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 2:41 pm
As for the specific instance, it does depend on the owner of the copyright when an article is published in BCM
Which is not solely the author unless specifcally asserted otherwise on publication. (This does happen, sometimes.)

But it's all piss and wind anyway. It is very straightforward that if you're going to reproduce previously-pubished work, you say where it's from, and that way everything is respected that needs to be rspected. It's not hard to do and there is no reason not to do it, and had peope made this point in 1977 there would have been no need for people to still be making it forty years later.

Simple as that, really.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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