Nice 74

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 05, 2021 11:47 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:31 am
It could have been agreed by everyone present in 1974 that Ray has a rest so he can get a Norm.
Although neither Michael Stean nor Bill Hartston seem to think so
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed May 05, 2021 3:17 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:47 am
Although neither Michael Stean nor Bill Hartston seem to think so
They were in the bar and not present when the deal was made.

In fact they could have been in the bar because it was not revealed to the others till later that RDK was being rested.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 1:59 am
Thanks, interesting to know what the motives for plying are under such circumstances, leads me to wonder what the strongest ever England team was. 86 maybe?
Maybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)

And given how close they actually got.....
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:17 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:47 am
Although neither Michael Stean nor Bill Hartston seem to think so
They were in the bar and not present when the deal was made.

In fact they could have been in the bar because it was not revealed to the others till later that RDK was being rested.
What you mean is "that David Anderton had done a deal with Ray without informing the rest of the team".
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 05, 2021 4:08 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm
Maybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)
As far as I recall, Mestel declined to be considered for selection. I believe it was in objection to the exclusion of Israel as a consequence of FIDE's decision to award the Olympiad to Dubai.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by NickFaulks » Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm
Maybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)
When 3, 4 and 5 are blowing the doors off it doesn't really matter who 6 is.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed May 05, 2021 5:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:08 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm
Maybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)
As far as I recall, Mestel declined to be considered for selection. I believe it was in objection to the exclusion of Israel as a consequence of FIDE's decision to award the Olympiad to Dubai.
Yeah, recall something like that.

Though wasn't the '86 team with Mestel instead of Flear the one we had in 1984?

Though of course Short (still an IM and bottom board) hadn't reached full maturity then.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed May 05, 2021 8:47 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:19 am
Apart from all that, there have been many instances where team selection and board order in England (and other) teams have not been decided on strength of the players.
There may be good reasons for that. The best team does not necessarily comprise the five (formerly six) best individuals.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:08 pm
As far as I recall, Mestel declined to be considered for selection. I believe it was in objection to the exclusion of Israel as a consequence of FIDE's decision to award the Olympiad to Dubai.
I think that that is only 99% correct. He was selected, but he declined the invitation.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed May 05, 2021 10:10 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:09 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm
Maybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)
When 3, 4 and 5 are blowing the doors off it doesn't really matter who 6 is.
There is that, but it can equally be argued that just two more half points for England in that event would have made history.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed May 05, 2021 10:34 pm

"The best team does not necessarily comprise the five (formerly six) best individuals."

I agree that there may be occasions that you leave people out for acceptable non-chess reasons.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu May 06, 2021 12:10 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm

What you mean is "that David Anderton had done a deal with Ray without informing the rest of the team".
This is what the KIngpin article alludes too. An agreement was made to rest Ray without other the team member being told.
(a secret that was bound to be revealed in a round or two. Can this really be classed as a clandestine arrangement.)

Ray mentions in his book that he is proud of the fact that he won his GM norms whilst representing his country at Chess Olympiads.
(1974 and 1976) I for one find this patriotic expression both heart warming and inspiring.
This unselfish act, travelling all the way to Nice and sitting out from playing is to be lorded and not besmirched.
Every true Englishman should stand proud alongside Ray. His OBE is not enough, he should be knighted.

Regarding the last game and Ray's 12 move draw to clinch the GM. norm.
The final 2-2 match v Sweden appears to have been part of an another arrangement. (pure speculation on my part)
All quick draws.

Ray Keen - Ulf Andersson 12 moves
Jonathan Penrose - Axel Otto Ornstein 14 moves
Andrew Whiteley - Lennart Liljedahl vs 15 moves
Michael Stean - Ove Kinnmark 17 moves

Bill was given a well earned rest for that one.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Thu May 06, 2021 4:31 pm

I'm never too sure when you're being serious, Geoff.

Is there a touch of irony in your 'arise, Sir Raymond'?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu May 06, 2021 7:01 pm

Hi Nick,

Of course I am having a laugh.
I find this RDK fixation hilarious. He gets the blame for everything that has gone wrong with Chess.
I think he has done a lot of good for the game. A few slip ups but can we not forgive and forget.
Also in his day he was a very good player.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Thu May 06, 2021 8:11 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 7:01 pm
A few slip ups
Forty years of misconduct, and forty years of toadying. In some ways the second is more interesting than the first, and more damning.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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