Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
Myron Samsin
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Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Myron Samsin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:20 pm

Along the lines of John Townsend's recent post about Cecil de Vere.. I've come across the following passage about botanist and architect Joseph Woods:
"Painstaking and laborious even in his amusements, he kept a record, forming three thick octavo volumes, of many games played, about the years 1808-16, with Lewis, Sarratt, Cochrane, Samuda, and several of the best players of his day.."
More about Woods here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=X39NAA ... &q&f=false
and here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=M-wmAg ... ss&f=false

According to the UK national archives hIs architectural drawings were given to RIBA and some botany notebooks ended up in the Linnean Society. I suppose it would be dreaming, to imagine that the chess notebooks survived somewhere. Unless the games did end up in the Lewis/Walker collections attributed to "NN" and have at least been preserved that way? Because if I were keeping a notebook of my games, why would I write down my own name. Thoughts, anyone?

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:20 pm

Myron,

First of all, welcome to the History section!

Since, if I understand correctly, it was in a publication of the Linnean Society that your quoted piece appeared, it may mean that they had first-hand knowledge of the chess material at the time of publication. I would certainly enquire of that society, if you have not already done so, whether they know of the whereabouts of the note-books. I see they have Burlington House. Is there a library there perhaps?

Otherwise, you could try searching the National Archives catalogue using the terms "Joseph Woods" and limiting the period to 1800 - 1899. Similarly, you could try the British Library's manuscripts catalogue.

It would be good to get more Sarratt games, as they are in short supply, and Cochrane pre - 1816 would also be of great interest.

Myron Samsin
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Myron Samsin » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:41 am

Hello John, and thank you. I'm pleased to make your acquaintance!

For a while now, I've been trying to decide whether to inquire at the Linnean Society. It does have a library, archive, and a very good online catalogue. For Woods, the only really interesting result is his botanical notebooks. There is, though, a note on the site that there may be more items stored away that aren't shown in the online results.

http://www2.calmview.co.uk/Linnean/Reco ... f57&pos=15

This is actually very interesting. They didn't acquire Woods' notebooks upon his death in 1864, but instead in 1939 as a gift from H. Stuart Thompson, Associate of the Linnean Society. Maybe the botanical notebooks were given to some botanical acquaintance in 1864 and stayed in private hands until then. I would guess that the same thing happened to the architectural drawings that ended up with RIBA -- given to some architectural acquaintance in 1864 and donated later on. If so, then the same thing likely happened to the chess notebooks -- given to some chess acquaintance. But who.. I can't even begin to guess. And the Linnean Society wouldn't know anything at all in that case. On the other hand, there is no harm in trying, is there. I might go ahead and ask them just in case.

I've already tried the National Archive, it's how I learned about RIBA and the Linnean Society collections but isn't any more informative:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... s/c/F51195

Which is a shame because, yes, games from the early 1800s are very, very scarce.

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:25 am

Well, Myron, the Linnean Society knew about the chess note-books in 1865, when they published the biographical notice, so there must be a chance that they still have some record of what became of them. I suggest you send an e-mail to the address given for the library and marking your message for the attention of the Archivist.

The National Probate Calendar shows that his will was proved on 15 April 1864, the two executors being his nephews, Samuel Woods, of the City of London, stockbroker, and Edward Woods, of Westminster, civil engineer. If your enquiry to the Linnean Society comes to nought, let me know and I will order a copy of the will to see if it mentions the chess note-books.

He died in Southover, Lewes, Sussex. As you said, he could have passed them on to another chess player, including someone local.

Myron Samsin
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Myron Samsin » Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:32 pm

I've just received a reply from the Archivist at the Linnean Society. They've searched up and down, and found no sign of the notebooks. Anything we can do next?

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:14 pm

That's a pity. It's probably a longshot, but I've ordered a copy of his will, as it could just throw some light. The website has had problems lately, but I'm hoping I'll receive the will in due course. I will post again. Have you tried the British Library's manuscripts catalogue?

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:55 am

In Oxford Encyclopedia of Chess Games, Volume 1: 1485-1866 (ed. D. Levy & K. O'Connell, 1981), I noticed two games played by "J. Wood", one in 1810 against Samuda (page 23), the other in 1815 against Lewis (page 24). It sounds rather like Joseph Woods, as those two opponents were among the four mentioned by Myron in his first post (above). The source of both games is given as "MS H. J. Murray 64, Bodleian Oxford, "Collection of European Games"".

I am not at all au fait with this source, but I have this list of H. J. Murray papers at the Bodleian, originally obtained from:

https://databank.ora.ox.ac.uk/misccoll/ ... ryVol2.pdf

The link doesn't seem to work now. The list includes:

"49125-8 Collections of games of chess mainly extracted from manuscript and printed sources. i + 52, i + 97, 182, 165 leaves. MSS. H. J. Murray 64-7"

I assume the above is what is meant by "MS H. J. Murray 64". Is it possible that they include some or all of the games from the note-books of Joseph Woods?

Myron Samsin
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Myron Samsin » Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm

John, I have searched the BL Manuscript Catalogue as well, and turned up nothing promising.

Also, I know exactly the games you mention in the OECG. There is something that feels... different about them, compared to the other games from that era in the OECG. They all are noted as coming from the Murray Collection at the Bodleian. I suspect that most of the games are from Lewis's notebooks, now in the Murray Collection, but the two Woods games are *maybe* not from Lewis. So perhaps something of Woods *is* in the Bodleian..

Tim Harding has been in there. He is the one who compiled the list of what is in each box. Maybe he remembers something?

Tim Harding
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Tim Harding » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:29 pm

Joseph Woods was a member of the London Chess Club committee for the correspondence match with Edinburgh (1824-28). Charles Tomlinson (1808-1897) was then his office boy and his memoir (BCM Nov 1891 page 492) includes a short passage which I quote in my thesis and in my history of CC (page 11). Tomlinson says he sometimes overheard players consulting about the games.

The two aforementioned games in OECG from 1810 and 1815 are said to be by J. Wood (not Woods) but this seems to a mistake made either by Lewis or perhaps by Murray, writing "Wood" instead of "Woods".

Lewis's notebooks of games are unfortunately not in the Bodleian, except for a transcript of part of one notebook (MS HJ Murray 51) and more usefully a typescript of some of it (MS HJ Murray 59b). The folios in 59b start at 413 because the major part, 59a, is a collection of Cochrane's games in India, copied from the John G. White collection.

At the front of 59b is a typed explanation (folio 414) by Murray of what befell the notebooks. On my last visit to the Bodleian I was allowed to photograph this and some other documents but I only had a few hours. (I was chiefly looking for stuff about Captain Evans on that visit.)
If somebody can tell me how to attach a JPG image to a post here, then I may post Murray's explanation.

The gist is that Lewis promised the notebooks to Von der Lasa but the latter was unable to come to London until 1858 when unfortunately only one notebook could be found. That was then for a long time in the v.d.Lasa collection in Kornik Castle, Poland, but I don't know if it's still there as I heard that some of the collection was sold off though Wikipedia says it is intact.

The games in the typescript are in English descriptive notation but Murray says that in the notebook Lewis used his own private notation except for games he copied from a Sarratt MS which he said were in Stamma's notation (i.e., a form of algebraic).
The good news is that John G. White of Cleveland obtained a copy after vdL's death and sent it o Murray for examination. Murray made his own copy and later the typescript.
So early on there is a game headed "Jos. Wood" [sic] v Lewis, Oct 1815 which is 1815 *LW-1 in OECG. Murray notes that this had been published in CPC volume 1 with the players' names reversed in error; colours are correct in OECG.
Then on folio 445, said to be page 270 in the notebook, there is the game Wood(s) lost to Abraham Samuda on 12 November 1810 which is page 23 in OECG but the editors omitted the final move of the game, Black's 42...Nxh6. Murray's transcript has "42 KxP KtxP wins."
So it seems to me that OECG has the only two games by Wood(s) in that MS in the Murray collection.
The boxes MS HJ Murray 64-65-66 could be checked for Woods games but I expect Levy and O'Connell went through those when doing OECG. On the other hand, they don't seem to have included every game in the Lewis/Murray typescript because I found there some Captain Evans games which are not in OECG.
Finally, Mr Samsin mentioned my name. I suppose he may be referring to either my old Kibitzer columns where I wrote about the Murray papers, or else to my book British Chess Literature to 1914. There on pages 282-287, for the benefit of anyone intending to do research in the Murray collection at Oxford, I provided what I think should be a helpful guide, including a brief description of what is in the various archive boxes which I have examined.
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter

Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

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JustinHorton
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:43 pm

Tim Harding wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:29 pm
If somebody can tell me how to attach a JPG image to a post here, then I may post Murray's explanation.
I use postimages.org though other methods are available. Upload your jpg using Choose images. When it's done, copy the direct link. Then click on the image icon above the posting box on here, and between the two boxes with "img" in them paste the direct link.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Ian Thompson
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:59 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:43 pm
Tim Harding wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:29 pm
If somebody can tell me how to attach a JPG image to a post here, then I may post Murray's explanation.
I use postimages.org though other methods are available. Upload your jpg using Choose images. When it's done, copy the direct link. Then click on the image icon above the posting box on here, and between the two boxes with "img" in them paste the direct link.
Somewhat simpler would be to use "Attachments" and "Add files", as in the screenshot for index.jpg.
Attachments
index.jpg
index.jpg (384.08 KiB) Viewed 1146 times

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:52 am

Thanks to Tim Harding for the explanation about the Murray collection.

One small follow-up for now. Tim wrote:

"Murray notes that this had been published in CPC volume 1 with the players' names reversed in error; colours are correct in OECG."

I can't find the OECG Wood - Lewis 1815 game via the index of games on page 416 of CPC. There is a game on pages 35-36, between Lewis and "an amateur of first-rate skill", which is of roughly similar length, and both are Muzios, and both were drawn, but there the similarity ends, as they are clearly different games.

Tim Harding
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Tim Harding » Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:56 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:59 pm
Somewhat simpler would be to use "Attachments" and "Add files", as in the screenshot for index.jpg.
Trying that. Hope it works.

I had to reduce the resolution a lot because originally I was told the filesize was too big
Attachments
woods-lewis.jpg
The "Wood-Lewis" game with Murray's intro
woods-lewis.jpg (1.15 MiB) Viewed 1039 times
Lewis-Murray-intro.jpg
Murray's explanation about the Lewis notebook
Lewis-Murray-intro.jpg (846.95 KiB) Viewed 1039 times
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter

Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

John Townsend
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by John Townsend » Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:46 pm

Thank you, Tim. That is interesting for more than one reason.

The reference which Murray gives of CPC I, 308 does not contain the 44-move drawn Muzio which he associates it with. Instead, it has a 48-move Muzio won by the first player. Murray's 44-move draw is the same, with minor differences, as the 1815 game in OECG (page 24).

As for his reference to New Court Gazette, 15 April 1840, that was before Staunton began his chess column. Surely, Murray must mean 15 August 1840, which contains the 48-move Muzio.

The 48-move Muzio does not seem to be indexed under "J. Wood" in OECG, so it seems we have at least one game by Joseph Woods more than we thought we had yesterday.

Myron Samsin
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Re: Joseph Woods chess notebooks

Post by Myron Samsin » Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:50 am

This is fabulous stuff, thank you all!

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