Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:36 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:Wade represented and played for England for most of his life, Yanofsky and Persitz never did. Persitz played for BUCA in the student olympiads of 1955 and 1956 but didn't require an ENG qualification to do so, it was sufficient he was at Oxford. Yanofsky won the British championship as a Canadian. So there's a clear distinction.
OK. Federation registration it is then. But how on earth do you find out if Mieses (for one) was registered ENG?

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:53 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Raphael Joseph Arie Persitz (1934-2009) - IM title in ????

.
We can leave him out of the titled players list as he never had a title. Sources - the cross-table and reports for Hastings 68/69 and the 1972 FIDE list http://www.olimpbase.org/Elo/Elo197207n.html

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:40 pm

The main list (see first post in the thread) has now been updated with the suggestions made in this thread. Presuming all the inaugural/retrospective awards made in the 1950-1953 period can be considered "British Isles" (some moved to England from elsewhere), and discounting the 13 titles that are currently in the list that were awarded following applications while registered for a non-British Isles federation (i.e. they shouldn't really be in the list), then the listing is of 202 titles.

Further updates would include distinguishing between titles gained by norms and titles gained by other criteria. Ideally, for all titles awarded since the FIDE rating lists were established (1971), the entry would be checked against the rating lists before and after the title was awarded, verifying the name the title was awarded under, and the federation (the rating could be noted at this point as well, if of interest). For titles awarded before the FIDE rating system and lists were established, announcements of the titles would seem the best way to verify each entry.

Hopefully the list is complete now, though it still needs careful checking.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:15 am

Re Jana Hartston (as she then was)

The marriage to Bill was in 1969 or early 1970. She was Mrs Hartston for most (or all) of 1970. (Personal recollection and the British Womens (or Ladies) Championship in 1970.)

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:13 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Re Jana Hartston (as she then was)

The marriage to Bill was in 1969 or early 1970. She was Mrs Hartston for most (or all) of 1970. (Personal recollection and the British Womens (or Ladies) Championship in 1970.)
There are some references to 1970, but nothing definitive. Would you know when the switch from CSR (Czecheslovakia) to ENG (England) was formally made? I've presumed that the WIM title in 1969 was while registered CSR and under her maiden name, as she "earned a bronze medal in 1968 with the Czechoslovakian team" and she won the British Women's Championship in 1970. Tournament crosstables from that era would be needed, as the FIDE rating system hadn't been established yet.

Out of interest, before 1971 and the first official ELO list (there were a few earlier ones to help establish the system), how were international tournaments handled in terms of rating? Were there just no ratings at all?

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:18 am

The other question remaining is when Dagne Ciuksyte switched from LTU to ENG. That would have a bearing on whether her IM title in 2006 was gained while registered for LTU or ENG. I've confirmed with the olimpbase archived ELO lists from 1972-2001 that she was registered LTU when she gained her WIM and WGM titles, but am still uncertain about the federation registration when the IM title was awarded. Are there archives around anywhere of the FIDE rating lists from 2001 to the present?

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:34 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The other question remaining is when Dagne Ciuksyte switched from LTU to ENG. That would have a bearing on whether her IM title in 2006 was gained while registered for LTU or ENG. I've confirmed with the olimpbase archived ELO lists from 1972-2001 that she was registered LTU when she gained her WIM and WGM titles, but am still uncertain about the federation registration when the IM title was awarded. Are there archives around anywhere of the FIDE rating lists from 2001 to the present?
In the European Individual Champs of September 2006, she is listed as registered for LTU:

http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_repo ... ent16=4509

In the Hastings Master for December 2006, she is listed as LTU:

http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_repo ... ent16=5956

In the British Championships for July 2007, she is listed as ENG:

http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_repo ... ent16=7601

Unfortunately, none of these list titles. There is still a outside chance that, like Dimitri Anagnostopoulos, the federation change and title award were very close together, and it is possible she appeared in one list as LTU (wgm) and in the next list as ENG (m). So like for Anagnostopoulos, the question is under which federation was the application made for the new title (i.e. what happens when someone applies both for a federation change and for a title)?

Ah, here we go:

http://ratings.fide.com/title_applicati ... e=IM&pb=11

The application for Dagne Ciuksyte's IM title was made at the 1st quarter PB Meeting, 13-14 April 2006, Al Ain, UAE, meeting and the federation code is LTU. The switch to ENG must have been made (or finalised) in 2007.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:54 am

For the record, of the 216 titles listed on the main list (first post in this thread), there are 16 that I've identified as being obtained while registered for a non-British Isles federation (though all of them earlier or later played for or were registered for ENG, IRL or SCO). Those are:

* Jana Malypetrova (1947) f [CSR] WIM (1969, age: 21-22)
* Murray G. Chandler (1960) m [NZL] IM (1977, age: 16-17)
* Gulnar Sakhatova (1963) f [URS] WIM (1985, age: 21-22)
* Bogdan Lalic (1964) m [YUG] IM (1985, age: 20-21)
* Ketevan Arakhamia (1968) f [URS] WIM (1986, age: 17-18)
* Ketevan Arakhamia (1968) f [URS] WGM (1987, age: 18-19)
* Ingrid Lauterbach (1960) f [GER] WIM (1987, age: 26-27)
* Bogdan Lalic (1964) m [YUG] GM (1988, age: 23-24)
* Aleksandar Baburin (1967) m [URS] IM (1990, age: 22-23)
* Rita Zimmersmann (1969) f [HUN] WIM (1991, age: 21-22)
* Ketevan Arakhamia (1968) f [GEO] IM (1993, age: 24-25)
* Dagne Ciuksyte (1977) f [LTU] WIM (1995, age: 17-18)
* Dimitri Anagnostopoulos (1970) m [GRE] GM (1996, age: 25-26)
* Jacob Aagaard (1973) m [DEN] IM (1997, age: 23-24)
* Dagne Ciuksyte (1977) f [LTU] WGM (1997, age: 19-20)
* Dagne Ciuksyte (1977) f [LTU] IM (2006, age: 28-29)

That leaves 200 titles awarded between 1950 and 2010 (plus one pending for 2011) while registered ENG, SCO, IRL or WLS with FIDE or (for the ones before 1971) living in the UK. I'm not sure whether Murray Chandler was resident in England at the time, but still registered with NZL. As he was aged 16-17, I've presumed he was still living in New Zealand at that time. It seems he gained British citizenship in the early 1980s, switched to ENG in 1982 and returned to New Zealand in 2006, though I'm not sure what year the federation registration changed back to NZL.

EDIT: Lauterbach's WIM title and Aagard's IM title added to the above list.
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:05 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:58 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:she won the British Women's Championship in 1970.
The BCF regarded her as eligible for the British title, but that probably doesn't prove anything.

The next Women's Olympiad didn't take place until 1972 in which she was board 1 for ENG
http://www.olimpbase.org/1972w/1972eng.html

In 1969 she had played for CSR
http://www.olimpbase.org/1969w/1969csr.html
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Out of interest, before 1971 and the first official ELO list (there were a few earlier ones to help establish the system), how were international tournaments handled in terms of rating? Were there just no ratings at all?
There were no ratings. Eligibility for title norms was established rather crudely by counting the number of GMs and IMs. To make it more difficult, GMs and IMs had to renew their titles with a GM or IM result at least once every five years.

British events had been graded by the BCF since the early fifties.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:08 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:she won the British Women's Championship in 1970.
In 1969 she had played for CSR
http://www.olimpbase.org/1969w/1969csr.html
Thanks. That clinches that she was a WIM while playing for CSR, as she is listed as a WIM there. I was misled by a source that said that that Women's Olympiad took place in 1968. Not too bothered about exactly when the federation switch took place, though as you say she was playing for ENG by 1972.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:44 am

Another update, as I found two more British title awards (one WIM award from 2006 and one IM award pending for 2011) while I was looking through the FIDE Presidential Board lists of title applications, which can be accessed here:

http://ratings.fide.com/title_applications.phtml

There are currently 29 lists of title applications there, submitted at Presidential Board meetings dating from 2003 to the one scheduled to take place at the current Olympiad in 2010, and there is also a list for the next PB meeting scheduled for the first quarter of 2011.

The two titles to be incorporated into the main list are the WIM title awarded to Jessie Gilbert in 2006 (the Presidential Board meeting took place the month before she died), and the pending IM title application for Tom Hinks-Edwards.

http://ratings.fide.com/title_applicati ... =WIM&pb=12
http://ratings.fide.com/title_applicati ... e=IM&pb=29

I will add those two to the list that has been compiled here.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:14 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
The two titles to be incorporated into the main list are the WIM title awarded to Jessie Gilbert in 2006 (the Presidential Board meeting took place the month before she died).
Rating requirements not met, unfortunately, I think.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:13 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
The two titles to be incorporated into the main list are the WIM title awarded to Jessie Gilbert in 2006 (the Presidential Board meeting took place the month before she died).
Rating requirements not met, unfortunately, I think.
Oh dear. Thanks for spotting that, and apologies to anyone reading this for not thinking to check that first. I've looked at the online scans of similar applications, and the ones where the rating requirements were met have the date filled in for that, and the ones where the date is not filled in seem to have been conditional awards of the title (the full and unconditional award of the title can sometimes come some time later). Presumably Jessie Gilbert's WIM title was a conditional one dependent on achieving the rating requirement at some point. Hopefully someone can confirm more about this and what you have said, one way or the other.

I do have a separate list (not published yet, but anyone can get the information from the FIDE website) of those who have current norms towards a title, but I will have to come up with a different way to record the history here. What I will probably do is include a section on players who achieved norms or strong performances, but for whatever reason did not go on to attain the relevant title. Another player who falls into this category would be Ian Duncan Wells (1964-1982), mentioned here and here:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=609
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 9&start=47

In that latter post, Leonard Barden says Ian Wells: "would certainly have reached at least IM strength had he lived", and the other post says that Golombek said he "would have become a great master". On the basis of that, and given that the main list goes down to IM and WIM level, and on the basis of Jessie Gilbert's WIM norms and the WIM title application, I will create an appendix to the main list and mention them both there. Would that be an acceptable way to deal with this, do you think?

EDIT: Second appendix now created.

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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by Howard Grist » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:36 am

I can confirm that Jessie Gilbert didd not achieved the 2200+ rating required to be awarded the WIM title. You can apply for a title without having achieved the required rating level, but very few people do this. John Richardson is the only other person that I am aware of to have done this.

FIDE do supply a list of norms on their site, but it is far from complete, e.g. there are 9 IM norms shown for English players whereas I am aware of some 30+.

I also notice that your list of players omits Mihai Suba who played for England in the 1989 European Team Championship. He was back playing for Romania when the next one came round in 1992.
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Re: Timeline of British Isles titles (1950-2010)

Post by James Pratt » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:40 pm

Anne Sunnucks was a Major in the Women's Royal Air Corps. Tony Kosten = Anthony Cornelius Kosten. Robert Cecil Bellin (he answered to RS Bellin but Gaige says otherwise), Bob Wade 'stepped down for the younger masters' and played for NZ as late as Siegen 1970.
Nigel Rodney Davies registered for England, then Wales, Israel back to England. Stewart Reuben told me it was possible to change federations during an event. Pal Benko played in the Candidates as 'Stateless'. Miss Loftus got married during the British Championships, Ayr 1978 and signed her scoresheets Toni Binns from thereon in... :shock:

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