English victories against reigning World Champions

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Ian Rogers
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Ian Rogers » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:34 pm

The Mastergame in 1983 was played at a time limit of all moves in 2 hours - definitely classical, though at the time the fastest possible rated time limit.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:20 pm

Thank you for that - I would definitely include it in that case.
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John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:34 am

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that some time since the 1980s the minimum time limit for a FIDE-rated game was 2 hrs. and 30 mins. for each player.

Was this subsequently shortened to 2hrs. per player, or was 2 hrs. each always the minimum?

There also seems to be some doubt about the exact definition of "classical".

Below is an extract from an answer to a question posed, elsewhere on the net, in 2014.
The FIDE-approved classical time control is: (taken from the handbook)

07 Time Control There is a single time control for all major FIDE events: 90 minutes for the first 40 moves followed by 30 minutes for the rest of the game with an addition of 30 seconds per move starting from move one.

This time control is used in many major chess events such as the Olympiad, FIDE Grand Prix and World Cup.

Another popular international time control for classical is 90 minutes with a 30 second increment.

The classical time control used in the World chess Championship is: (from Wikipedia) 120 minutes, with 60 minutes added after move 40, 15 minutes added after move 60, and 30 additional seconds per move starting from move 61.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:58 pm

In the current rules, it's definitely a minimum of 2 hours per player if one of the players has a 2200+ rating. I don't have previous copies of the rules to hand.

Andrew Bak
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Andrew Bak » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:32 pm

I remember Adams bearing Carlsen at the Olympiad where Carlsen played some ...Nh5 rubbish. Was that when Carlsen was WCh?

NickFaulks
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:55 pm

Andrew Bak wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:32 pm
I remember Adams bearing Carlsen at the Olympiad where Carlsen played some ...Nh5 rubbish. Was that when Carlsen was WCh?
No.

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:15 pm

A little bit like Victor Berger (not sure if he ever was/became English) defeating Alekhine at Margate in 1937, just before Alekhine regained the title from Euwe?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:03 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:15 pm
A little bit like Victor Berger (not sure if he ever was/became English) defeating Alekhine at Margate in 1937, just before Alekhine regained the title from Euwe?
Despite missing a one move win of AAA's Queen along the way!
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John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:36 pm

You don't say!

Victor Buerger (Berger) (b. 29 January 1904, in Nikolaev, Ukraine [then Russian Empire] – d. 1996, UK) was a Ukrainian–British player.

So, Victor did not qualify as an 'Englishman' and his salutary victory at Margate, 1937, seems to have been achieved a short time before Alekhine regained the title.

Regarding Tony Miles' Master Game defeat of Karpov - I, too, think it should be included since 2hrs. each is certainly not rapid/quickplay and is an acceptable minimum for rated longplay games.

Here's a past proposal for 'standard' -

https://en.chessbase.com/post/acp-deman ... ols-in-che
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:36 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:55 pm
Andrew Bak wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:32 pm
I remember Adams bearing Carlsen at the Olympiad where Carlsen played some ...Nh5 rubbish. Was that when Carlsen was WCh?
No.
That was in 2010, when Mickey was feeling unwell!

Leonard Barden
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:16 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:36 pm

So, Victor did not qualify as an 'Englishman'
Untrue.

I played Victor Buerger in the zonal qualifier for the 1950 British Championship, where he scored 6/11 in the championship proper at Buxton.

As can be seen from John Saunders's crosstable in Britbase, Buxton 1950 ranked alongside Plymouth 1957 as the strongest and most competitive British championship in the first decade after the Swiss system replaced all-play-alls in 1949.

http://www.saund.co.uk/britbase/pgn/195 ... iewer.html

I've no reason to doubt that Victor Buerger was a British citizen in 1950, and indeed he seems listed as a home competitor much earlier, at London 1927 and Hastings 1927-28.

John Townsend
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John Townsend » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:28 pm

A naturalisation certificate for a Victor Buerger, from Russia, resident in London, was issued on 11 June 1927.
(source: National Archives catalogue: re HO 334/105/14830)

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:50 pm

Ah, but that raises the old thorny question - can an 'Englishman' ever be a naturalized Brit?

To answer that myself - some say yea, some nay.

The whole thing is academic - unless we are prepared to include Victor's victory, at the end of an interregnum over a champion awaiting imminent restoration, as good enough to merit it?

With thanks to Leonard and John T for the info.
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Nick Grey
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:21 pm

Isodur Gunsberg became a British Citizen in 1908. Also sued the Evening Standard & won.
So why are we excluding his 4 wins against Steinitz in a World Championship.
Why exclude Battersea's strongest ever player?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:14 pm

Gunsberg wasn't a British citizen at the time he played Steinitz, though, which I think is the criterion people are using here to determine whether these games count.

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