English victories against reigning World Champions

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John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:08 am

" Gunsberg wasn't a British citizen at the time he played Steinitz, though, which I think is the criterion people are using here..."

If the criterion is so the title of the thread needs to be amended and the search widened.
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Nick Grey
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:34 pm

Are you suggesting that Gunsberg has not beaten a World Champion after 1908?

MJMcCready
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:10 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:14 pm
Gunsberg wasn't a British citizen at the time he played Steinitz, though, which I think is the criterion people are using here to determine whether these games count.
I was thinking in terms of being English at the time of playing the reigning world champion in a classical format.

I assumed Yates and more recently Speelman both had wins but don't have my portable library with me, and so can't check off line. Didn't Adams beat Kasparov with the Trompowski once?

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:32 am

The original poster set the following criteria -
MJMcCready wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:06 am

Is there a list of Englishmen and their victories over reigning/former world champions anywhere? I assume that Mr. M.Adams would top the list in terms of world champions he beat.
Since then the criteria have been narrowed to victories over reigning champions (presumanly only male ones) at "classical" time controls and then widened to include British (players).

I simply suggested the title of this thread be amended (either by the original poster, or an administrator) to reflect the criteria if the criteria have changed.
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MJMcCready
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:50 am

Point taken.

Richard Bates
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:12 am

Mir Sultan Khan

Leonard Barden
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by Leonard Barden » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:12 am
Mir Sultan Khan
Sultan Khan had 0-3 against Alekhine. His famous win against Capablanca at Hastings 1930-31 was against an ex-champion.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:08 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:10 am
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:14 pm
Gunsberg wasn't a British citizen at the time he played Steinitz, though, which I think is the criterion people are using here to determine whether these games count.
I was thinking in terms of being English at the time of playing the reigning world champion in a classical format.

I assumed Yates and more recently Speelman both had wins but don't have my portable library with me, and so can't check off line. Didn't Adams beat Kasparov with the Trompowski once?
I don't think that Adams ever beat Gazza in *classical* chess?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:23 pm

That's right - Adams did win a rapidplay game against Kasparov in 1993 but never won in longplay, though he had a string of draws.
Leonard Barden wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:12 am
Mir Sultan Khan
Sultan Khan had 0-3 against Alekhine. His famous win against Capablanca at Hastings 1930-31 was against an ex-champion.


Thanks, again, to Leonard (see previous page).

It should be said Capablanca, after losing the World Championship in 1927 to Alekhine, tried hard to get a rematch.

Alekhine ("Somehow the match will never take place.") defended the title twice, in 1929 & 1934, against his friend Bogoljubow before inadvertently losing it to Euwe in 1935.

Euwe played as World Champion at the great tournament of Nottingham in 1936, but I believe no Englishmen were able to defeat him. He lost a return match for the title to Alekhine in 1937.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:42 pm

By the way, at Nottingham in 1936 Capa was 1st= (with Botvinnik) and defeated Alekhine in their individual encounter, the first time they'd met otb since the 1927 World Ch.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:18 pm

Alekhine always made clear he would have a rematch with Capa if JRC matched the conditions he (AAA) had had to fulfil for their 1927 match. It is not really his fault that the world economic crash soon afterwards made that a rather more daunting prospect.

There is IMO a clear bias towards Capablanca from most chess writers when discussing their rivalry (as they have also tended to favour Kasparov over Karpov, and for that matter Morphy over Staunton) Not surprising given that he was a very charming man who was so easy to get on with, his deadly rival a tad less so.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Tim Harding
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by Tim Harding » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:03 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:34 pm
Are you suggesting that Gunsberg has not beaten a World Champion after 1908?
Yes.

Gunsberg hardly beat anyone after 1908 as he had been pretty much retired (except from journalism) for years. Obtaining naturalisation meant he was eligible for the British Championship and hehad a small come-back, playing (from memory) a couple of times without much success.

In 1914 he was invited to St Petersburg (where he didn't win a game) so played the Kent congress just before it as a warm up. The 1914 British was maybe his last tournament but I am away from home to check this, and don't have Di Felice's book anyway. (It could be unreliable, the 19th century volume is awful.)
Tim Harding
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Nick Grey
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:34 pm

Thanks Tim. Enjoy your chess whilst you are away.

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against reigning World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:04 am

Matt Mackenzie>Alekhine always made clear he would have a rematch with Capa if JRC matched the conditions he (AAA) had had to fulfil for their 1927 match. It is not really his fault that the world economic crash soon afterwards made that a rather more daunting prospect...<

Matt, please note that those conditions applied only to Capablanca - they were not applied to Bogoljubow and Euwe.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: English victories against World Champions

Post by John McKenna » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:34 pm

Tim Harding wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:03 pm
Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:34 pm
Are you suggesting that Gunsberg has not beaten a World Champion after 1908?
Yes.

Gunsberg hardly beat anyone after 1908 as he had been pretty much retired (except from journalism) for years. Obtaining naturalisation meant he was eligible for the British Championship and hehad a small come-back, playing (from memory) a couple of times without much success.

In 1914 he was invited to St Petersburg (where he didn't win a game) so played the Kent congress just before it as a warm up. The 1914 British was maybe his last tournament but I am away from home to check this, and don't have Di Felice's book anyway. (It could be unreliable, the 19th century volume is awful.)
St. Petersburg 1914 seems to have been Gunsberg's swansong. He only managed 1/10 - draws with Marshall & Janowski.

Born Budapest 1854, World Ch. challenger (losing 8.5-10.5 to Steinitz) New York 1891, German Champion 1885, d. London 1930.

He played (at least) a two-game match (+1,+1) with Lasker,Ed. in London in March 1913.

NB: Kasparov hardly gives Gunsberg much of a mention (and only a couple of games - neither of which are v. Steinitz) in My Great Predecessors - Part 1 concentrating instead on Chigorin's matches with Steinitz for the title.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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