Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
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John Upham
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Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by John Upham » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:45 pm

I was looking at "100 Classics of the Chessboard" for its section on endgame studies and was reminded of the game Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870 or 1872 which ends in perpetual check on move 18.

According to MegaBase 2019 the same game with the same result has happened 46 times since 1870.

This set me thinking : how many standard drawing games (that have happened multiple times) are there for those who wish to pre-arrange a draw ?

I watched the Golding brothers play out the Sam Loyd 10 move stalemate at the 2019 Berkshire Megafinal and this appears 6 times in MB 2019. This is the one that starts 1.e3 a5 2. Qh5.

i.e.



There is also the other Sam Loyd stalemate 1. d4 e5 2. Qd2 e4 etc. This has happened around 6 - 10 times in MB 2019 depending on move order.

i.e.




and there is the example from Frederick Rhine :



However, I am more interested in the ones that end in perpetual check as a means of completing a pre-arranged draw.

Can you help please ?
Last edited by John Upham on Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Geoff Marchant
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Geoff Marchant » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:44 pm

I remember being part of a team plotting to repeat the moves of the famous Sax vs Seirawan, Brussels World Cup 1988 game, which ended in perpetual after just 13 or so moves. We thought a certain strong player might enjoy the beauty of that game and be happy to repeat it, knowing he played the variation. Despite "wasting" a White, it worked a treat for our team as we won the match by virtue of that half-point "lost".

I bet that game has been used a few times for quick peace!

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 fxe6 9.Ng5 Bxb5 10.Nxe6 Bxd4 11.Nxd8 Bf2+ 12.Kd2 Be3+ etc.
Last edited by Geoff Marchant on Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:55 pm

Geoff Marchant wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:44 pm
I bet that game has been used a few times for quick peace!
Over 250 times!

White can play for a small edge by taking the Bishop on b5 at move 11 instead of the Queen on d8.

etc.

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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Geoff Marchant » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:03 pm

Thanks Roger!

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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Richard James » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:35 am

This one's even more popular:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. c3 Qd3 8. hxg4 hxg4 9. Nxe5 Bd6 10. Nxd3 Bh2+

Mick Norris
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:00 am

Richard James wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:35 am
This one's even more popular:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. c3 Qd3 8. hxg4 hxg4 9. Nxe5 Bd6 10. Nxd3 Bh2+
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:01 pm

Of course, the Hamppe-Meitner game was "refuted" yonks ago - Heidenfeld pointed out more than one missed White win in his book "Draw!".
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by John Upham » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:25 pm

Matt,

That is the main point underlying my post.

I was hoping to discover all of the popular "games" that players use to play a pre-arranged draw.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:40 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:25 pm
I was hoping to discover all of the popular "games" that players use to play a pre-arranged draw.
There's one in the Open Spanish, but not forced as 10 Kh1 is also possible and the theory main line. After the scary looking 10. .. Qh4, the sequence runs 11. Rxe4 dxe4 12. Qd8+ Qxd8 13. Nxd8 Kxd8 14. Kxh2 reaching an ending that some are prepared to play as Black.



There's also the repetition in the Zaitsev.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by John Upham » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:43 pm

Another pre-arranged drawing game appears to be a variation of the Vienna Game as follows :




which has occurred some 38 times first being seen in Donner - Kramer, Wijk aan Zee, 1952.

I thank James Pratt for drawing (?) my attention to this.
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:47 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:43 pm
Another pre-arranged drawing game appears to be a variation of the Vienna Game as follows :




which has occurred some 38 times first being seen in Donner - Kramer, Wijk aan Zee, 1952.

I thank James Pratt for drawing (?) my attention to this.
A well known example is Nunn - Speelman, London 1980, where the last round draw gave Speelman his first GM norm.

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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:48 pm

You might find some here - http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscol ... id=1008234 - if you look at those that are said to end in perpetual check.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:17 pm

Richard James wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:35 am
This one's even more popular:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. c3 Qd3 8. hxg4 hxg4 9. Nxe5 Bd6 10. Nxd3 Bh2+
That's the one "played" by the Kosintseva sisters about a dozen times I think :)
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by John Upham » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:32 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:17 pm
Richard James wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:35 am
This one's even more popular:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. c3 Qd3 8. hxg4 hxg4 9. Nxe5 Bd6 10. Nxd3 Bh2+
That's the one "played" by the Kosintseva sisters about a dozen times I think :)

This has been used for a pre-arranged draw 363 times according to MB 2019.

The sisters have played this 8 times to date. More to follow no doubt !
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Hamppe - Meitner, Vienna, 1870

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:14 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:32 pm

The sisters have played this 8 times to date. More to follow no doubt !
No, because Nadezhda has emigrated to the US, is married with a daughter, and now plays rarely, with no rated games since 2016, although she has done some work for Chessbase.

Tatiana remained in Russia and now plays even more rarely.with no rated games since 2015. She entered the women's world rapid/blitz championship at St Petersburg last December, but withdrew before the start. Her only recent recorded chess activity was a 56-board simul against children in Yalta last September:
http://ruchess.ru/news/all/grossmeyster ... h_v_yalte/

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