Rules Question

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 7162
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Rules Question

Post by John Upham » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:32 pm

I really ought to know the answer to this...

In a rated rapidplay event player A (with the white pieces) castled short by first touching the h1 rook.

However the player's king was already attacked by his opponents queen on e4.

No legal move with the h1 the rook would eliminate the check.

What should Player A do?

A supplementary question if I may...

In the same scenario as above:

Had player A touched his king first to castle short what should he now do?

Thanks for your help.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Rules Question

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:00 pm

The player must move (or capture) the first piece touched that can be legally moved. If there is no legal move then the player is free to make a move which is legal. So, in order:
There is no legal move of the rook so the next piece touched is the king.
Is there a legal move with the king? Castling is not allowed. If there is a legal move then the king must move.
If the king has no legal move the player must get out of check by either capturing the 'checking' piece with a legal move or blocking the check. The player is free to decide which legal move to play if there is more than one option.

The second question is covered above.

Tim Harding
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Rules Question

Post by Tim Harding » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:31 pm

In John's scenario, he didn't say whether player A (who tried to castle out of check) had pressed his clock or not.

Alex, please confirm if I am right in the following, or correct me:

According to article 7.5.1 and the interpretations in the 2021 Arbiter Manual, if A did NOT press the clock before realising his mistake, then you have given a complete answer. (And of course the question was what should A do, not what action should the arbiter, if any, take).

But if A pressed the clock before he, or the opponent or the arbiter pointed out the error, then:
a) It is an illegal move and penalties apply (same in rapid as in classical), i.e., two minutes added time for the opponent and liability to loss of the game if A makes a subsequent second illegal move.
b) If the move counter on the clock is being used, the arbiter may have to adjust it.

I do realise I should know without asking, but having had (due to Covid) no opportunity to act as an arbiter since being awarded the FA title, I am only now getting around to working through the new manual which has many interpretation paragraphs that differ from the previous one.
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter

Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Rules Question

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:41 pm

If we are playing ask the experts, less importantly but for my curiosity

I looked at the laws since I wondered if you could use the "deliberate" element of touch move to claim that you touched the rook with the intention of castling if challenged. It seems clear as written you cannot.

But it brought my attention to double handed castling, where king and rook picked up simultaneously. Now considered a king move. But although I never did it, I recall other juniors in the 80s were taught to do it that way. Is that a more recent rule change?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Rules Question

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:10 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:41 pm
But it brought my attention to double handed castling, where king and rook picked up simultaneously. Now considered a king move. But although I never did it, I recall other juniors in the 80s were taught to do it that way. Is that a more recent rule change?
There was a game where notwithstanding having several arbiters watching, Nakamura castled with both hands. That was later ruled not allowed and presumably the rules slightly modified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Jr0usPOmE
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10248

Ian Thompson
Posts: 3543
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Rules Question

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:47 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:00 pm
The player must move (or capture) the first piece touched that can be legally moved. If there is no legal move then the player is free to make a move which is legal. So, in order:
There is no legal move of the rook so the next piece touched is the king.
Is there a legal move with the king? Castling is not allowed. If there is a legal move then the king must move.
If the king has no legal move the player must get out of check by either capturing the 'checking' piece with a legal move or blocking the check. The player is free to decide which legal move to play if there is more than one option.

The second question is covered above.
I don't think the second question is covered above. The answer says "There is no legal move of the rook so the next piece touched is the king." Laws 4.4.1 and 4.4.3 says that if the player touches his king first then a rook, with the intentional to castle, he must castle if possible. If that's not possible, he must move the king if possible. If that's not possible, he is "free to make any legal move", so he doesn't have to make a legal move with the touched rook if there is one.

Richard Thursby
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:25 am
Location: origin + pathname + search + hash

Re: Rules Question

Post by Richard Thursby » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:17 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:41 pm
But it brought my attention to double handed castling, where king and rook picked up simultaneously. Now considered a king move. But although I never did it, I recall other juniors in the 80s were taught to do it that way. Is that a more recent rule change?
From what I (think I) remember, up until some point earlier in this century (sometime between 2000 and 2010 I think), castling was permitted with two hands. When the rules were changed, the BCF/ECF explanatory commentary said something along the lines of "Most players thought this was the case anyway." Those with better memories and/or access to more sources may be able to provide a more precise date.

E Michael White
Posts: 1420
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Rules Question

Post by E Michael White » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:00 pm

Richard Thursby wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:17 pm
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:41 pm
But it brought my attention to double handed castling, where king and rook picked up simultaneously. Now considered a king move. But although I never did it, I recall other juniors in the 80s were taught to do it that way. Is that a more recent rule change?
From what I (think I) remember, up until some point earlier in this century (sometime between 2000 and 2010 I think), castling was permitted with two hands. When the rules were changed, the BCF/ECF explanatory commentary said something along the lines of "Most players thought this was the case anyway." Those with better memories and/or access to more sources may be able to provide a more precise date.
In 1997 the FIDE Laws were changed and this paragraph inserted:-
4.1 Article 4: The act of moving the pieces
Each move must be made with one hand only.
Beware some of the Laws before 1997, had some of the words completed and made reversed.

For 2017 I suggested that the Law should be changed to:-
Article 4: The act of moving the pieces
4.1 Each move must be played with one hand only.
ie played is substituted for the word made, as it removed some anomalies. The difficulties previously arose from the word made/make having many different meanings in English but the FIDE laws needed it to have special significance and be tightly defined,

This change was accepted and is now in the current laws. The word "played" should be interpreted as the whole process of the move from picking up the first piece to pressing the clock and applies to all moves and especially where more than one piece needs to be touched.

Post Reply