i keep having issues with others scoresheets

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AlanLlewellyn
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i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:44 am

i have been in a vital position a number of times- and my opponent has asked me if i can give him my scoresheet to complete his missing moves. This has happened a number of times and usually i acquiesce but two times i have been so annoyed by what could be construed as sportsmanship behaviour that i have said no and they have taken um-bridge. I thought if you lost track of moves on a scoresheet, you had to continue where you realised the mistake and complete the scoresheet missing moves when you had completed the game.
What is the ruling by FIDE on such issues. Can the ECF make the ruling clear.

Ian Thompson
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:54 am

AlanLlewellyn wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:44 am
i have been in a vital position a number of times- and my opponent has asked me if i can give him my scoresheet to complete his missing moves. This has happened a number of times and usually i acquiesce but two times i have been so annoyed by what could be construed as sportsmanship behaviour that i have said no and they have taken um-bridge. I thought if you lost track of moves on a scoresheet, you had to continue where you realised the mistake and complete the scoresheet missing moves when you had completed the game.
What is the ruling by FIDE on such issues. Can the ECF make the ruling clear.
The relevant FIDE rule is 8.1.1 which requires the scoresheet to be kept up-to-date at all times unless the exception when short of time applies. There's nothing explicitly saying how infringements of this rule are to be dealt with, so it's at the arbiter's discretion. Applying the same procedure as rule 8.5.2 would be sensible in my opinion. That requires the player to immediately bring his scoresheet up-to-date before moving again. He's allowed to borrow his opponent's scoresheet to do this if it's his move and provided he returns the scoresheet before moving again.

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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:25 am

but surely this is too distracting to the opponent and can be used deliberately so in gamesmanship. I think theyre should be a hard rule disallowing distraction of your opponent surely.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:15 am

If the opponent asks to borrow your scoresheet when your clock is running then that is distraction.

It is acceptable for an opponent, on their own time, to request to borrow your scoresheet so that they can complete their own one as an up to date scoresheet is a requirement of the Laws. Properly, this should be done through the arbiter but that can cause more of a disturbance. (Technically the opponent would stop the clock, which can be done for anything requiring the presence of an arbiter, and then go and get an arbiter. The arbiter would see that his scoresheet was behind and issue a verbal warning. The arbiter would then borrow your scoresheet, which is the property of the organiser so you cannot refuse. The arbiter would restart the opponent's clock and make sure your opponent got their scoresheet up to date. The arbiter should then check that the scoresheet is returned to you before a move is made.

A player who repeatedly asked to borrow your scoresheet could be considered to be distracting you. In which case you should inform the arbiter who should ensure that the player keeps their scoresheet up to date and therefore does not need to speak to you.

You cannot refuse to pass over the scoresheet as you should be recording on the one provided. If you are using your own scorebook then you are leaving yourself open to potential accusations of cheating as you can refer to previous games for advice.

If an arbiter spotted that your opponents scoresheet had missing moves then they should wait until you had moved and started your opponent's clock and borrow your scoresheet to give to the opponent who would then be ordered to get their own scoresheet up to date.

An arbiter who notices that the two scoresheets are showing different numbers of moves showing would check the last move(s) had been entered on both but would probably only act if they had not been. This is because players often record accurately but miss a space, and sometimes even record moves they 'dreamt' had been played.

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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:32 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:15 am
If an arbiter spotted that your opponents scoresheet had missing moves then they should wait until you had moved and started your opponent's clock and borrow your scoresheet to give to the opponent who would then be ordered to get their own scoresheet up to date.
I don't think the arbiter should help the player with the incomplete scoresheet by giving them the other player's scoresheet. They should just instruct the player to get their scoresheet up-to-date. They should provide the other scoresheet only if the player asks for it.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:01 am

Hi Ian,

I agree if the player has missed out the last move or two but if it is more than that or there is a gap further back in the scoresheet then it will be necessary to use the other player's scoresheet.

In this case I was trying to keep it simple and let Alan know that an arbiter may request his scoresheet, so he should expect that to happen.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:26 pm

What happens if both players have missing moves? Do they need to do a complicated swap of scoresheets on their own times to get both scoresheets up-to-date? (Can both players agree to stop both clocks for a few minutes?) How does it work for reconstructing moves from a time scramble? Is it acceptable for both players to decamp to another board to attempt to reconstruct the moves before continuing the game (I am talking here about situations where both players agree they have made the time control, so it is just a matter of updating the scoresheets, not of checking a claimed win on time).

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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:39 pm

Alex Macfarlane we non-computer cheats find it very difficult when deep in a train of thought, the opponent suddenly reaches out for your scoresheet, surely that rule needs changing its very distracting. I personally think more in my opponents time than my own, but maybe their lies the rub.

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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:48 pm

Its not taking chess seriously by saying you should be free to distract your opponent like that.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:13 pm

Alan - no-one said the opponent was allowed to reach out and snatch your scoresheet.

Christopher - depends on the situation. If neither scoresheet is complete due to incompetence then the game can be paused.
If it is a time scramble then the clock keeps going until one player exceeds the time. THe game is then reconstructed.

Many years ago I was doing a time scramble. They reached move 43 and agreed together that they had reached at least 40. The next two moves were played quickly but not at breakneck speed. I relaxed. But suddenly they both went into blitz mode and all I could do was to count the moves played. When a flag eventually fell they had played over 60 moves and had passed the next time control (40 moves in 2 hours, followed by 20 per hour thereafter until a result or one player died! Remember those days).

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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:43 pm

Alex in the daventry minor u1700 (at easter 2022), I had injury heaped on injury- not only did in one game my 8 year old junior player keep repeatedly asking for the scoresheet(it happened at-least 5 times i think) but after I managed to keep Zen like concentration before the next game they frisked me with a detector device finding wand. Miracles do happen i won hence i guess the wand but i think a bit of complaint from the mother was the cause of that.

NickFaulks
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:58 pm

AlanLlewellyn wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:43 pm
not only did in one game my 8 year old junior player keep repeatedly asking for the scoresheet(it happened at-least 5 times i think)
That is very easily solved - you tell them to stop it. You are actually doing them a favour, since I think youngsters often genuinely have no grasp of chess etiquette, because nobody has told them.
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AlanLlewellyn
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by AlanLlewellyn » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:22 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:58 pm
AlanLlewellyn wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:43 pm
not only did in one game my 8 year old junior player keep repeatedly asking for the scoresheet(it happened at-least 5 times i think)
That is very easily solved - you tell them to stop it. You are actually doing them a favour, since I think youngsters often genuinely have no grasp of chess etiquette, because nobody has told them.
Its not easy if you ever complain about someone doing it they get angry and it becomes an incident and may put you off- i was doing well in the game so i just tried like i said to reach my Zen- I am not a new ager btw i am very old-fashioned.

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Jon Mahony
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Jon Mahony » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:33 pm

While I appreciate there is a strict rule in place regarding score sheets, I do think certain players use it as a distracting tactic.

There was a certain Nottingham based player I used to run into at congresses, who was not above a bit of gamesmanship - a couple of times when I played him he would ask for well timed score sheet checks, during one of my big thinks at critical points in the game, bringing me out of my calculation to say "Excuse me but I think I've missed a move here... etc etc..."

I can't say it ever overly bothered me, but I knew what the intent was.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: i keep having issues with others scoresheets

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:09 pm

Jon Mahony wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:33 pm
he would ask for well timed score sheet checks, during one of my big thinks at critical points in the game,
Are you not allowed to ask him to do this when it's his clock running?

If you are playing without a time control at a fixed move number, there's no immediate importance to the opponent that the score should be correct unless it's needed to validate a threefold reprtition or fifty move count.